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23 June 2012

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turcopolier

Fred

Religious fanatics are all sure they know what the Word of God is and often are willing to kill or oppress overthe definition. p[l

Babak Makkinejad

The Quran is the Word of God. All Muslim societies are based on those Revelations. That entire Muslim Civilization rests on that foundation.

There is no dispute within Islamic world on that subject.

turcopolier

Babak

Having "broken a few eggs" my self I am quite serious about MA. Have you read the "Meditations?"

As for the nature of the true Islam, you know very well that there are a thousand different ijma' visions of that. Who decides, the Khowza of Qum? pl

Babak Makkinejad

I did not read the entire text; I stopped when I came across his statements stating that murdering innocent Christians was necessary for "Raison d'Etat".

I do not know the nature of True Islam. There is a Tradition that when the Al Mahdi appears and preaches Islam, people will at first think that he is preaching a new religion and not Islam.

Fred was not questioning issues of interpretation but the “Word of God” itself.

There is no dispute on the Quran being the Word of God.

Over the last 400 years, the Shia Doctors of Religion have been injecting rationalism into (Shia) Islam, in Najaf and Qum.

That effort is continuing.

Fred

I happen to live in a multi-religous society. Again, who interprets the Quran?

YT

Col.,

Maybe Prophet Jesus?

[Who will combine forces of good, against evil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_time

Babak Makkinejad

I assume that this is not a rhetorical question.

In principle any Muslim can do so.

In practice, many people defer to the opinions of the Doctors of Religious Sciences of Islam of their own choosing.

Medicine Man

"Secularism" like elections?

turcopolier

Babak

It is true that most Muslims follow the opinion of some ijma' "circle." This is true whether one is Shia, Sunni, Ibadhi or a mujahid of Al-Qa'ida. It is also true of the various turuq in Sufism and of the Ikhwan Muslimeen as well. pl

MRW

Colonel,

I don't think you can make a comparison between Iran 1979 and Egypt 2011/2012.

I was in school at Columbia (NYC) when the Shah was overthrown. Everyone around me ran over to Ed Said's office clicking their heels and exulting "People's Revolution!" I didn't. I took one look at Ayatollah Khomeini's eyes, and said so to my fellow students. I said he was going to be 10X worse than the Shah. I was treated with 100% derision, but so what, it was plain to me, realizing that wasn't brain surgery.

Six months later I was hanging out with Foreign Service types in Tangier, courtesy of my uber-connected host. Cocktail hour at the US consulate or embassy (never figured that out) was where you could get liquored up for free. Great canapés. Two guys with loose lips said they had helped prepare Khomeini when he was hanging out in France. Trained him and his ragtag group in CIA practices to make the world media believe he had the support of the people. These two guys doing the talking were pissed that the Ayatollah had tricked them, claimed the CIA had planned the whole thing and the intention was that the religious guys would sit at the top and we would run the oil out of the country, we even had a couple of pallets of US $ printing paper in the Embassy basement and $100 plates in the Embassy vault that William Simon schlepped over for them; they were on their 10th drinks by then. But Khomeini REALLY DID want to make the whole country Shi'a, they wailed. By then, of course, the Iranian revolutionaries were holding US embassy officials as hostages, and Khomeini was killing off all the Ba'hai in the country.

It was, as someone said above, a religious coup, and the CIA suffered blowback.

I don't think you can say that about Egypt. The Egyptian one started with the people and in the streets as a result of Tunisia. The majority of MB are professionals: doctors, lawyers, and yes, Muslim. My brother-in-law was in Egypt four months before the Arab Spring and told me the disparity between the rich and military living in gated communities, which he saw from the inside, versus the rest of the people was so stark that he told his family that they could look at the Pyramids (after the first day) on the net, they were getting out there. When the Arab Spring happened in Feb 2011, he said "How could it have not happened? People have to eat."

Alba Etie

Will anything happen from Turkish F4 being shot down by the Syrians ?

Babak Makkinejad

You are mistaken in characterizing the Revolution in Iran as a religious coup; the Iranian people clearly and demonstrably had rejected monarchy and voted, literally, for an Islamic Republic.

Ayatollah Khomeini's leadership, his spiritual and temporal authority, was accepted by the vast majority of the Iranians; I suggest you watch the footage of his funeral, if you can, to see how much he was loved by the Iranian people.

Arabs are unlucky that they do not have a leader like him; with deep knowledge of Fiqh as well as of Muslim philosophers (such as Mullah Sadra) that could had actually spent time thinking out a plausible system of representative government that cohered with Islam.

In my opinion.

The absence of a man such as him makes the situation in Egypt very bad indeed as there will be no foundation for an Islamic dispensation that combines elements of Republicanism with the Principles of Sunni Islam.

What you described in your last paragraph is worse than what obtained in Iran under the Shah.

MRW

Babak, you wrote: "You are mistaken in characterizing the Revolution in Iran as a religious coup; the Iranian people clearly and demonstrably had rejected monarchy and voted, literally, for an Islamic Republic."

Right. On April 1, 1979. However, the Shah left on the 16th of January, the day 10 bells rang in every newsroom worldwide. Then Khomeini returned to Iran around the beginning of February. It was two months later when the Iranians were given one choice in an election: Khomeini or not. No one else was on that ballot. (BTW, I don't blame them for wanting to dump the Shah; he was out to lunch about the horrors of the Savak.)

Babak Makkinejad

I believe that you are ill-informed.

Iran officially became an Islamic Republic on 1 April 1979 in a national referendum to make it so.

In my judgement, you could have supplied as many choices as you would have liked amd Iranian people would have voted for the Islamic Republic.

There was not a choice of leader in that referendum; comtrary to what you have stated.

In December 1979, the Iranian people approved a new constitution, whereby Khomeini became Supreme Jurisprudent of the country.

The distance between Egypt and Iran is analogous to the distance between Romania and France.

Be that Egyptions so lucky to get 10% of what Islamic Republic has.

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