Dershowitz on L'Affaire Zimmerman

Ah, the hell with it.  This from Alan Dershowitz is just to good to pass up. He wasn't smiling today.   pl

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#47034974

Comments

[turcopolier]

All

If you don't like my occasional impatience, well, tant pis pour vous. GZ's lawyer should not plea bargain this case. I assume he is willing to entertain the thought at this point becasue he has not received the government's evidence in "discovery" as yet. pl

[Morocco Bama]

Thanks for that link, PL. I don't watch much news, so I never would have seen this had you not brought it to my attention. I have to say, I agree with Dershowitz on this one. It's refreshing to hear someone in the mainstream besides the "conservative" shock jocks call it like it is. I agree that there should be no plea bargain. I was going to say that on the other threads that have disappeared, since it was mentioned as a possibility by several in the comments section. Also, thanks for reconsidering and keeping us updated and providing a sane forum in which to discuss this and share our views.

[Suzanne Croghan]

I have been a daily reader of your website for as long as I can remember - well, at least back when I first knew of you from the good ol' "Newshour" days. I am 72 years old and always smile when you have one of your "impatient" moments... no doubt less often than warranted. I hope you know how valuable many of us, silent though we may be, consider this blog. I am grateful when I wake each morning, and I am grateful to be able to learn something each time I open your website. Suzanne

[Tyler]

Keep fighting the good fight, Colonel.

Funny how he said the old "grand jury indict a ham sandwich" saw. This is going to be nuts when it gets thrown out of court.

[cauxang]

"occasional impatience" ...indeed.

[steve]

Wow, Dershowtitz sounded like a true legal scholar here and not just a Zionist.

[Pirate Laddie]

Tant pis? Mais non! Tant mieux!!
Given the histronic presentation of the indictment, does anyone expect this affair to run the full legal course? I figure the whole thing will be plead away or just shelved before the late May "Act Two." It's a real hoot, however, to have ol' Unka Alan holding forth with such terms as "unfair and irresponsible" as well as "unethical."
Still, it would be rewarding to see Zimmerman & his grandstanding pappy give up a pound or two of flesh -- this whole self-activating vigilante game has gone on too long & the old man's comments about the president are worse than manipulative and partisan.

[turcopolier]

PL

Why would GZ's father not be angry with Obama? The president has interfered in a local criminal matter to the detriment of GZ. pl

[The Moar You Know]

Thanks. Why would he plea? The law is pretty specific - winner walks, loser dies.

If anyone has a problem with the outcome, the law's the problem, not Zimmerman.

[Medicine Man]

There's been entirely too much media horseshit regarding this case. I don't blame you for being tired of it and tired of moderating the warring partisans on your own blog.

At this point I wonder what the odds are of us getting any semi-accurate version of the events that led to this? For anyone extending the presumption of innocence to both Zimmerman and Martin the state of affairs is frustrating as hell.

[rj]

Colonel, I am just so not impressed with what Dershowitz said -- just a spin on what's obvious. Yes, one possibility is that Corey is going for second degree to get the plea bargain. Over-charging to bargain down in our justice system happens often as .... what, somebody pontificating on the internet??? Well, not that often. But it happens everyday and why should today be different. Second, there's a possibility of course that Ross has more info than is currently public (and contra Dersh, has no ethical obligation to put it in the probable clause affidavit). Remember, the Sanford homicide detective wanted the county prosecutor to charge him. Whats in his report? Martin was talking to his girlfriend on the phone, what has she said? Is she a strong witness?
Regardless of what gets produced at trial, Zimmerman's defenders will scream "it's all political" etc. But in the meantime, Dersh is good at one thing, putting something into the conversation that is not in evidence yet. Grass stains? Zimmerman's wounds? Should we bet on that swaying the jury? Oh, yes, I forget. The police report -- that instrument of God's honest truth from the finest, most honest, most competent police force on God's green earth. I'd love to play poker sometime against Dersh; those are all tells.
What do we know for sure? Just this, totally innocent 17 year old walks down street. Is pursued. Gets killed. Contra Dersh, if you attack someone, lose, then kill them because you are armed and they are not -- that simply does not sound like self-defense (seriously, it just doesn't work that way). Remember Zimmerman went after Martin, not the other way around.
And, finally, and most importantly, we only have Zimmerman's word that he was attacked by Martin. And here is why, IMO, the prosecution might feel confident. How much of an idiot would you have to be to put Zimmerman on the stand to tell his side of the story? Did you listen to his 911 call? Have you paid attention to his behavior the last few days? Is the man stable? A wannabe cop out roaming with a tec9? Cross examining him is what prosecutors dream of.
Like many others, I expected a manslaughter charge. Makes much more sense to me. But with the hand the defense has in this case, any semi-smart prosecutor would up the ante and pressure for a deal. That's what they do. I don't think that Zimmerman is a racist or a particularly hateful person. But you assign yourself the responsibility of the neighborhood watch and carry a weapon and don't have a good grip on things... How is this supposed to play out?

[SteveB]

Obama also publicly declared Bradley Manning guilty, an even greater abdication of his responsibility not to make prejudicial statements.

[SteveB]

2nd degree murder seems over the top to me, but it's typical of a prosecutor to overcharge to try and force a plea (perhaps as well to provide political cover as Dershowitz alleges). Some form of manslaughter, perhaps involuntary, seems like a more appropriate charge to me and a jury of his peers can hash it out.

[Morocco Bama]

Contra Dersh, if you attack someone, lose, then kill them because you are armed and they are not -- that simply does not sound like self-defense (seriously, it just doesn't work that way). Remember Zimmerman went after Martin, not the other way around.

This is dishonest, once again. You don't know that Zimmerman attacked Martin, or that Martin attacked Zimmerman. What we do know is that Zimmerman claims Martin attacked him and the police report corroborates this. You have completely twisted it and misrepresented it. Why? Also, what's up with this statement?

What do we know for sure? Just this, totally innocent 17 year old walks down street. Is pursued. Gets killed.

Why don't you post a photo of Martin in his pram wearing a hooded sleeper....footies and all to support this assessment? Leave the descriptors out of it. One could just as equally say "totally innocent 28 year old neighborhood watchman...." This is the kind of garbage that gives lawyers and that profession a bad name.

[LeaNder]

Grass stains?

Yes, I considered that ridiculous too. Dershovitz can draw an amendment to the law, in a gated community patrolled by a vigilante you have no right to defend yourself, if you are attacked in the middle of the night stand still and present your ID. Force them to put up a big sign at the gates with these rules.

I don't remember the second piece of evidence he presented: scratches on his head, bruises? Did he really use wounds? I guess forensic medicine by now can differentiate the typical patterns of these special signs and what they suggest.

None of these signs are clear evidence of an attack by Martin. But interesting, Dershowitz position. Let the man go. http://www.slideshare.net/guest910dc9/norman-podhoretz-my-negro-problemand-ours>My negro problem, and ours?

[LeaNder]

Dershovitz: The stains on the back of his shirt, the blood on his head, the bloody nose.

Strictly this could be signs of defense too. What are the forensic signs on the boy? Bruises in the back, front, side from being clutched and stopped?

Acoustic analysis of scream? Let Zimmerman show how it happened and let him scream, videotape from the place where it was recorded, compare. Strictly this is not comprehensive proof either. But one would expect Martin to scream, although it strictly is quite possible Zimmerman did. As a vigilante he surely expected the help from the community in chasing robbers.

The really bad thing, I experienced several times in my life, is that no one ever reacts. Just as I have myself given up, when it turned out twice it were just juvenile pranks.

All this is no accuse to shoot a harmless teenager, only if you assume he has no right to defend himself. what proof he thinks he had, that the guy defended himself? Wanted to get away from him?

Simple story: Life isn't fair, there will always be winners and victims?

[turcopolier]

LeAnder
To call Martin an "innocent teenager" is to buy into the narrative being peddled by Sharpton and compamy. He was over six feet tall. I have known US infantry private soldiers who were 17 years old. If you have ever been in a fight you should know that until GZ drew his weapon it was a pretty even fight and not a game. To call GZ a "vigilante" is inaccurate. A vigilante acts without authorization. That neighborhood watch was organized and trained by the Seminole County sheriff. The issue of the gun is a matter of GZ's decision. That does not make him a vigilante. It was not illegal for him to carry the weapon. pl

[Arun]

I don't think Trayvon Martin was examined - we only have the funeral director's word for it that he saw no injuries on Martin's hands and knuckles.

Regarding Martin's hoodie being up - it was raining that day.

The Florida Stand Your Ground law is a travesty of justice. In an altercation where one person is shot, the survivor has the benefit of the doubt, the victim is presumed to have been homicidal. I don't think this is a decision for the police to make, it needs the for and against argued in front of a magistrate.

For another case, look up Brandon Baker.

[Arun]

Martin might have been six feet tall but he was 140 pounds. I'm sure many US infantry soldiers fit that description.

[Arun]

The effect of the Florida law is that Brandon Baker, Trayvon Martin and others like them have not only been shot dead, but the state also pronounced them guilty of homicidal intent - where is the due process in this? Remember, in our system of justice, we do not allow the police to decide guilt.

[turcopolier]

Arun

Rubbish. When I was 17 I was 5'11" and weighed about 140 pounds and was a private in the infantry, The following year I was a three stripe sergeant. Sentimentalism seems to rule with you. The prosecutor is elected. The judges are elected. Thepublic has been taught to hate Zimmerman like you do. What do you think is going to happen? pl

[turcopolier]

Devereaux

If you don't like the way I run this place, don't come here. pl

[Don Mohoney]

I am in agreement with you on a lot of stuff, but not this case. His height now correlates with capability to fight and kill someone with his bear hands?

Again, there is only one victim in all of this and he is dead. Was unarmed. Not committing any crime. Had every right to be where he was. GZ mall cop mindset set the series of events rolling.3

[Arun]

Why do you assume I hate Zimmerman? I don't hate anybody. I dislike the Florida legislators who created the "Stand Your Ground" law, and the National Rifle Association that lobbied them and other states to put such a law in place. I'm equally upset about the death of Brandon Baker. Did you look him up?

I think such a law is a travesty of equal justice for all. See, what defenders of this law and Zimmerman seem to be saying is that had Trayvon Martin been shot but survived, he should be charged and convicted of attempted murder. It is because Martin is dead that this "conviction" by a private party stands.

I think the Stand Your Ground law also stands on its head all the tradition of common law. Common law evolved over a period of time, so that much of the nonsense that doesn't work got culled out. Pure rationality can't determine the law, the world is too complex for that. The long human experience about what works and what doesn't has to be respected. That too is not the case in such a law.

As it stands, it seems to me that (especially when there are not witnesses) anyone can accost someone else, shoot them, bloody themselves a bit and get away with it in the state of Florida.

[LeaNder]

OK, fair enough. I thought he was smaller, that's quite big. I noticed on the latest videos that Zimmerman seems to be quite small.

So you think, Martin endangered himself by his reaction? You think that Zimmerman was trained enough to let the boy know what it was all about? What would the whole scenario have looked like, had he immediately pulled his gun and told the young man, if you like, to stop and what his intentions are by shooting in the air? That would have sent a clear signal...

Strictly my sympathy is a result of a vivid memory of my prolonged defiant phase concerning authorities. I was lucky enough to only have been arrested by police for hitchhiking, it made me mad every time it happened, but I knew I better had to control myself.

I think the parents only want to know what exactly happened, and I can understand that. And that needs a thorough examination. Does Dershowitz suggest he should be left alone? Do you?

But yes, my main influence was the NYT article, and if what you write was in there, it escaped my attention, or wasn't stressed enough. No doubt, the guy may be punished enough by living with the knowledge he shot an innocent person, although I somehow doubt. Reminds me I once wanted to study arsonist, after being confronted with the case. Now

On the early police videos his head is down, but now his attitude has completely changed. He seems to realize that his supporters won't allow that he is sentenced. Has what you suggested with your knowledge of power already happened? The scenario would fit.

Strange story.

Hmmm?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_watch

I once was reported by such a guy. Up to that point I didn't know we still had "Block leaders".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockleiter

A friend drriven me to a co-student outside Freiburg. He drove an Italian sports car from the sixties, we looked to him like typical terrorists, I think it was the car. My friend studied engineering and had carefully restored the car himself. How silly of the guy to think that terrorist would use such an eye-catching car. A day later the Federal Police visited me.

http://www.usaonwatch.org/

9:30 – 10:30 Observation Skills and Reporting Suspicious Activities Target Hardening for the Home Community Presentations

Target hardening?