Sometimes I Think there is Something Really Wrong with US... Q: Do You Think Jesus Would Vote for the Bill? A: Probably Not, Probably Not... by Adam Silverman

Adam L. Silverman, PhD*

If you've got a spare minute head on over and check out this past weekend's This American Life.  Its about Alabama's, strictest in the US, recent anti-illegal immigration law and the current GOP primary debate issue of self deportation.  Now before anyone freaks and screams "states rights!!!" give it either a listen or a read (hyperlink goes to the transcript).  The law was not written in AL or by one of her legislators, rather it was written by a Kansan, who was also one of the drafters of AZ's recent law (which, amazingly, is NOT the most draconian one out there), as well as similar pieces of legislation in a number of other states - and there appears to be an ALEC connection.  Do we need to have secure borders and a rational (economically, politically, and psychologically) immigration policy?  Without a doubt.  Is this the way to do it?  Most likely not.  I think one of the biggest examples of this in the report is when the AL Republican legislative whip that helped get the law passed (a self described devout Christian) has the following exchange with the interviewer:

 

"Jack Hitt

Which brings us back to State Senator Gerald Dial, the Republican whip you heard earlier, who's worried about scaring away business. He's leading a campaign to, as he puts it, "tweak the law," in all sorts of ways. Here's a big one. He wants to get rid of this idea that any attempt to help people who might be illegal is itself illegal. That bothers him enormously. He's a devout Christian, so he wants to insert a Good Samaritan provision to protect good, charitable folks who are just practicing their faith.

Gerald Dial

I had a man who runs a soup kitchen, feeds people just off the street, call me and said, that's just terrible, because I feed people. And I don't stop the door and say, are you here illegally or legal? I feed you because you're hungry. And so that's a compassionate thing. And that's the Christian thing to do. And we're going to put that part into the bill also.

Jack Hitt

OK. So once you've amended the bill, do you think Jesus would vote for the bill?

Gerald Dial

Gosh, you've asked me a tough question. I would hope that he would understand. I would say that, would he vote for the bill? Probably not. Probably not. If you just laid it all the way down, probably not."

* Adam L. Silverman is the Culture and Foreign Language Advisor at the US Army War College (USAWC).  The views expressed here are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of USAWC and/or the US Army.

** Hat tip to Digby on the This American Life broadcast.

Comments

[YT]

Off thread (seriously).

I wonder what Jesus would say to the Temple of likudniks & their lackeys leading the U.S. govt into one god****ed war after another?

Or what Jesus would have to say to them ragheads who proclaim to the world that he's one of their Prophets & then proceed to murder his Coptic followers or other Christians in their neighborhood? (This applies equally to those non-believer israelis killing Arab Christians.)

I wonder if he'd point his middle finger at all of them pricks & utter the damnedest profanities directed at both their predecessors & descendents for the next 70 generations?

I've read that he possessed a temperament of righteous fiery (if I'm not mistaken).

Worth pondering IMO.

(Sincere apologies to all who are of the Christian creed.)

[r whitman]

When I was a high school student in the late 1940's living on the US side of the Texas-Mexico border, illegal immigration, then called the wetback movement(now a perjorative)was a problem. It has not changed since despite any number of solutions tried. Illegals will find a way around the Alabama law.

BTW Harpers complaint about the media in the previous post applies here. We do not know if there are 3 million illegals in country or 15 million, the 11 million quoted is a media fabricated figure that has no basis in fact.

[zot23]

I always muse on this question: if the Christian Messiah actually returned, would we even know it? Would our hearts recognize the truth of the Word, or would we crucify him/her with our dogma (as needed by the power structures of the churches)?

Or to put it another way: what would Christians do if Christ returned and denounced the modern Church itself? Called the Pope out as just a man and the dogma as unnecessary to the Word of God?

[ked]

I can tell ya one thing...
in 'bama his Ass 'ld be grass.

[Charles Dekle]

The answer to the question, “what would Jesus do if he returned to earth?” sort of depends on which mythology you follow. Mittens and his lot profess the following:
“Latterday revelation revealed to Joseph Smith in 1832 teaches us that this Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be built upon the American continent. In Doctrine and Covenants 84:2-3 the Lord reveals: “Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of this prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri….” This is the region known as Jackson County.”
http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2011/10/question-box-will-jesus-rule-from-jackson-county-missouri/

Newt and Santorum are Catholics so we have the following official “belief” for them:
“The official teaching of the Catholic Church on the end times and the Second Coming of Jesus is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 673-677. This is very illuminative and is worth study.
Several things are mentioned in this:
1) That although we don't know when, it will happen!
2) That the Second Coming will be delayed until the recognition of Jesus as the Messiah by the Jewish people.
3) That before Christ's Second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers (cf Luke 18.8 Matt 24.12) and that there will be some kind of religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.
4) The emergence of the Anti-Christ - a pesudo-messianism - by which man glorfies himself in place of God and his messiah come in the flesh, seeks to bring about the kingdom himself.
5) The final triumph of God who will himself defeat the final unleashing of evil and bring to an end this passing world for the New Jerusalem.
http://www.ccr.org.uk/archive/gn0411/g01.htm

I guess that you could combine the two since the Catechism is not place specific. Let me just say that if Bibi starts speaking in tongues (see item two of the Catechism) or if Mormons start streaming towards Jackson County MS I, for one, will head to the nearest bar. ☺

[dan bradburd]

Can't help but post the lyrics of Woody Guthrie's song, which are well worth pondering--not to mention listening to.

Jesus Christ
Words and Music by Woody Guthrie

Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land
A hard-working man and brave
He said to the rich, "Give your money to the poor,"
But they laid Jesus Christ in His grave

Jesus was a man, a carpenter by hand
His followers true and brave
One dirty little coward called Judas Iscariot
Has laid Jesus Christ in His Grave

He went to the preacher, He went to the sheriff
He told them all the same
"Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the poor,"
And they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

When Jesus come to town, all the working folks around
Believed what he did say
But the bankers and the preachers, they nailed Him on the cross,
And they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

And the people held their breath when they heard about his death
Everybody wondered why
It was the big landlord and the soldiers that they hired
To nail Jesus Christ in the sky

This song was written in New York City
Of rich man, preacher, and slave
If Jesus was to preach what He preached in Galilee,
They would lay poor Jesus in His grave.

[Medicine Man]

It's dangerous to actually listen to what Jesus had to say. He was quite a rebel.

[Fred]

ALEC is a bigger threat the representative government than immigration. Who needs a 'cut and paste' legislator? We fail kids out of schools for doing that, in this case we will probably be electing said author to Congress, where he can carry on his tradition. What would Jesus do, indeed.

[confusedponderer]

The democracy part about lawmaking is that there is open deliberation on the merits or lack thereof of a law in parliament and/or committee and the legislation so passed can be analysed and interpreted in light of these documented deliberations. You don't have that with cut and paste bills that were written in private and put on the shelf.

ALEC is not just a 'cut and paste' legislator, it is a cut and paste legislator for hire, who will legislate anything that paying corporate interest find desirable. The result are abominations like these anti-immigration bills, funded and written by the prison industry, or abominations like SOPA/PIPA that were funded and written by the entertainment industry.

It is hardly an accident that what all these laws have in common is that they are essentially special interest wish lists.

That is bad enough, but it is made worse by representatives, dependant on campaign donations, who take these special interest wish lists from the shelve and undertake steps to sponsor and ultimately enact them. The internet industry's protest against SOPA/PIPA has shown that what's good for Hollywood isn't necessarily good for Silicon Valley as well (apparently Silicon Valley omitted to pay to play on SOPA/PIPA).

By not debating these bills and their benefits and drawbacks in open forum these representatives are derelicting their constitutional duty to act for the good of the country.

I find it particularly disturbing when such bills or provisions are added to an appropriations bill at the 23rd hour.

That's almost as bad as the even more blatant Hungarian conditions, where individual representatives of the party that rules with a 2/3 majority, bring in major constitutional changes and quasi revolutionary bills in as 'individual initiatives' - in order to not having to debate these laws in parliament (as they would have to, if they were ordinary bills.

[YT]

Med,

Not read this yet, but should be interesting. --

http://www.versobooks.com/books/270-the-gospels

Author probably agrees with ya.

[Fred]

The 'Hungarian' option is going to be alive and well in Michigan by 'citizen' inititives (funded by the same guys creating super-pacs) that get initatiated in the state house. Once passed there is no option of a veto from the Governor per the State Constituion. I believe that this was on Blogging for Michigan, not the MSM. Hector Solon had some similar background on Kos, also.

[citizen]

Ah, but rational for whom? The problem is complex, not surprisingly considering how large a nation we are. It involves class, race, religion, and economics.

We have the white working class who are largely against continued immigration. To argue that they are acting irrationally is to ignore the very real effect immigration has on their wages and job prospects; the recent official numbers by the government bear this out. I find it interesting that the black middle and working class have been waking up to this reality, seeing the so-called rainbow coalition for what it is, a Democratic political con-game. Conversely, businesses need cheap labor. If you don't hire cheap labor in many industries: hospitality, restaurants, and construction, you die. Hispanics are a mixed bag on this, they are often the first people to be hit, and hit hard, by continued immigration. Whilst self-anointed Hispanic identity politics activists and technocrats presume to tell us that continued immigration is a deal-breaker for Hispanics, I am not so sure. And then there are the political pundits and the churches. And then there are the hate groups, whose influence is blown far out of proportion and contribute to the notion that everyone opposing continued open borders is acting on xenophobia.

I'm not sure this country will ever have an honest, helpful discussion on this topic. Too many groups are too interested in obfuscating the issue, and too many groups have honest reasons for reaching very different conclusions. And the current crisis of leadership we are experiencing in all branches of government is not helping.

There won't be blood on the streets, but there will be lot's of everyday tragedies and suffering for the working classes and poor of all races. Not suffering on the level of Upton Sinclair's jungle, more on the level of Zola's L'assommoir.

Maybe George Kennan was right, our main problem is we are too big.

[Stephanie]

The Mexicans were welcome enough when Texas politicians on either side needed a bloc of reliable votes.

[ked]

you are making pretty big presumptions about political culture in 'bama. it may be hard to believe, but the latest revised flavor of "solid South" state legislators, as reactionary hard-right (or manipulative, or both) as they are, are to the left of the majority of the electorate.

[optimax]

Some people go to church just for the halibut.

[LFS]

Congratulations for pointing out the ALEC angle, the NPR report missed it or ignored it altogether. Who needs Citizens United when there is already unlimited access to the local political machine. The most insightful comment in the interview was the Democrat legislator who explained that the Republican Party has been "nationalizing local elections" with a firehose of money directed at everything from the dog catcher to the State Senator. This is the real "collectivization" of national politics, and it isn't coming from the Obama machine.

[Charles Dekle]

There appears to be a profit motive. I remembered hearing this story on NPR a little over a year ago:

http://www.npr.org/2010/10/28/130833741/prison-economics-help-drive-ariz-immigration-law

[Fred]

Prison 'out sourcing' and 'get tough on crime' generate a massive income stream. Lots of money to be made, no public concern and even less oversight than wall street faces. What a racket.

[ked]

Rick, I feel your pain... being both a New Yorker AND an Alabamian (roots to the 19th Century... which is still pretty recent 'round here). Anyway, there is almost no Left of any consequence in Alabama - it's merely a course & relative term. There are hardly any Conservatives either (of the Eisenhower / Rockefeller ilk, at least openly... heck, there aren't many Goldwater could sit down & have a drink with...).

We've got outta-their-minds-embarrassingly far right, very far right, pretty far right & right-but-somewhat-rational-on-occasion. Many aren't even hospitable any more.

It takes a harsh dose of reality (like arresting executives of international automakers) to kick'em out of their irrational reactionary reverie. & most of the "common folk" (electorate) are suspicious of global trade anyway. cheers,