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31 December 2011

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Walrus

Whatever remaining sympathy I had for Israel evaporated when I saw the first airburst WP over Gaza. $$$$ing barbarians. "Mistake" my ass. That was a deliberate fire mission. The only "mistake" was that it was photographed. I guess this time they will burn Gaza kids at night.

J

Colonel,

IMO the Israeli IDF behaves more on the lines of the WWII German Nazi war machine in how they treat others (Palestinians, non-Israeli citizens) as 'sub-human'.

DFS.

After Operation Cast Lead, a number of photos and articles in the international press and medical literature depicting the effects of white phosphorus. Easy to find on the web. Not pleasant, but I'd recommend folks have a look around to understand what it does. The wounds are terrible and leave deep, permanent scars.

Doug Tunnell

The above insights of the current IDF Chief of Staff remind me of those of one of his predecessors -- Raphael Eitan -- who on Sept. 16, 1982 joined Ariel Sharon and other Israeli officials to brief American diplomats (including Morris Draper) on the IDF's plans for Sabra and Chatilla in Beirut.

About the recently assassinated Bashir Gemayal's Phalangists, Eitan is on record as saying "...I'm telling you that some of their commanders visited me, and I could see in their eyes that it's going to be a relentless slaughter..." That night Israeli flares lit the way into the camps.

Eitan visited the camps shortly after the Phalange withdrew and when challenged about why the IDF did nothing to stop the carnage replied " We can't control what the Lebanese hide in the trunks of their cars..."

confusedponderer

Phosphorous is not a metal (you perhaps mixed it up with thermite, another incendiary, which is iron based?). It may easily burn through metal though. I recall seeing a war trophy, a Tokarev, from Vietnam, with its steel frame partly burnt by WP.

I agree with everything said except that.

As for the use of phosphorous against civilian areas, Bomber Harris would see nothing wrong with that.

The Israelis try to 'deter' simply be using ruthless brutality. The destruction of substantial parts of Lebanese civilian infrastructure during their failed invasion of that country peaks a clear language. Cast Lead saw the same approach concentrated on a far smaller area.

They apparently believe in the ideas of total war against the enemy's entire societies, in which the will of the other side to fight must be broken through decisive action - against enemy forces as much as against the enemy society proper - be it by air war or a lopsided, excessive ground operation like Cast Lead. In that thinking, civilians are not just fair game, deliberate infliction of civilian casualties are a means to an end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Douhet

georgeg

What is truly sad is that our media portrays the Israelis as the victims......

turcopolier

confused ponderer

My mistake. I never claimed to be scientific. I have used WP, napalm and thermite for various purposes. It would be difficult for me to confuse them. The IDF's willingness to use such things against non-combatants and civilians in general is one of the worst things about them. pl

confusedponderer

I just wanted to clarify, no offence intended.

And as for what the idea of using a weapon like WP on civilians tells about the allegedly "most moral of all armies", the IDF, I agree.

So according to Benny Gantz the 'deterrence' achieved through Cast Lead is wearing off? Time to kill another ~1.400 Palestinians, and wound some ~5.300 to restore it? Or 'better' the deterrence somewhat by killing and wounding more? The purpose? To put the Palestinians in their place once more?

How far away is that from the 'administrative massacres' of the colonial era?

Judging by how they act, the IDF gives a crap about casualties as long as they aren't Israeli and Jewish. Their actions don't live up to the standard their propaganda asserts.

FB Ali

"Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad"

Vaclav Linek

Just two general questions for anyone willing to answer.

If the Israeli's carry out another Cast Lead operation,
how would that play out, given the new situation in Egypt?
Related to that, just how permeable is the border between
Gaza and Egypt these days, i.e., has Hamas acquired any
capabilities that might surprise the Israeli's, if only
on a small scale?

Vaclav Linek

Andrew

"that achieved deterrence for Israel vis-a-vis Hamas." Did it? Did it really? pl

Col. with all due respect, sir. I think it did, when in a moment of orwellian cruelty, the leaders of the so- called "civilized" world hissed in unison that slaugterhouse Gaza was a defensive action. It showed the Palestinians that even their complete destruction would be justified/explained away in a five minute press conference.

turcopolier

Andrew

The Israelis have no peace and will have none until they can bring themselves to compromise with the Palestinian Arabs. pl

YT

confusedponderer,

Re: "ideas of total war against the enemy's entire societies, in which the will of the other side to fight must be broken through decisive action... be it by air war or..."

Perchance that you've perused this book as well? --

http://www.amazon.com/Final-Frontier-America-Science-Terror/dp/1859846823

The author writes 'bout how the father of the USAF brought those above-mentioned ideas to the fore in then RMA, and how it was demonstrated in latter wars.

Mr. Dominick Jenkins mentions 'bout the sinking of the Lusitania & how it was eerily similar to 9/11 jus ad bellum.

A pretty good volume MHO illustrating the nexus between science & technology (a.k.a. industrial-military complex), the state, weapons of mass destruction, & notions of 'enemy'.

(Though I must admit that time constraints back then did not allow me to thoroughly leaf thru its pages in entirety.)

Re: "In that thinking, civilians are not just fair game, deliberate infliction of civilian casualties are a means to an end."

Tsk, tsk. Living in an age where gun magazines are the price of a pack of batteries & an AK-47 can be exchanged for few sundry goods, what are we to expect? Human life is cheap - collateral damage is the easiest excuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Lusitania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Mitchell_%28general%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italo-Abyssinian_War

YT

"Less well known is the detail that the napalm was dropped by VNAF fighter bombers trying to keep the NVA from capturing her town"

Col. sir,

Thanks for clarifying.

But who's to be blamed for the suffering inflicted?

Uncle Ho & his posse Giap, or the then American govt & their slide-rule theory whizkids with their gang of VN cronies?

turcopolier

YT

I see. In your view the people of South Vietnam who did not want to live under communism and whose armed forces resisted that rule were not right to defend themselves with our help. Only Ho, Giap and the communists had rights. Well, that pretty welll identifies you. Were you old enought to march carrying the enemy's flag and chanting for their victory? pl

YT

Col. sir,

Re: "Were you old enought to march carrying the enemy's flag and chanting for their victory?"

Touché.

YT

No sir, I was still swimming in me ol' man's balls or probably living life as another entity on some other dimension.

I ain't no communist (though I do have leftist leanings) & I'm thankful that I was not living in that era of chaos.

The mad hat utopian fantasies of a pol pot or mao do not appeal to me whatsoever (thank god for democratic ideals).

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