Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:00am EDT
"LONDON (Reuters) - Pakistan's security service provides weapons and training to Taliban insurgents fighting U.S. and British troops in Afghanistan, despite official denials, Taliban commanders say, in allegations that could worsen tensions between Pakistan and the United States.
A number of middle-ranking Taliban commanders revealed the extent of Pakistani support in interviews for a BBC Two documentary series, "Secret Pakistan," the first part of which was being broadcast on Wednesday.
A former head of Afghan intelligence also told the program that Afghanistan gave Pakistan's former president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, information in 2006 that Osama bin Laden was hiding in northern Pakistan close to where the former al Qaeda leader was eventually killed by U.S. special forces in May.
Admiral Mike Mullen, then the top U.S. military officer, accused Pakistani intelligence last month of backing violence against U.S. targets including the U.S. Embassy in Kabul.
He said the Haqqani network, an Afghan militant group blamed for the September 13 embassy attack, was a "veritable arm" of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI). Pakistan denies the U.S. allegations.
One Taliban commander, Mullah Qaseem, told the BBC the important things for a fighter were supplies and a hiding place.
"Pakistan plays a significant role. First they support us by providing a place to hide which is really important. Secondly they provide us with weapons," he said, according to excerpts provided by the BBC.
Other Taliban commanders described how they and their fighters were, and are, trained in a network of camps on Pakistani soil.
According to a commander using the name Mullah Azizullah, the experts running the training are either members of the ISI or have close links to it.
"They are all the ISI's men. They are the ones who run the training. First they train us about bombs; then they give us practical guidance," he said."
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It appears that Pakistan has played us like a violin. pl
What the Taliban leaders say may very well be true, but if I were a Talib trying to stir up dissent between the U.S. and Pakistan, these are exactly the sort of allegations that I would want to make. Again, I'm not disputing that what they say may be true, just that it's hard to distinguish hard facts from statements made with ulterior motives through the Clausewitzian fog.
Posted by: Cato the Censor | 26 October 2011 at 05:22 PM
No Surprise..to Me.Col..Long suspected they were Protecting Bin Laden..and perhaps helped Set up an Ambush for Team 6..recently along with the many Convoy Ambush's..that froze vehicles into sitting targets inside pakistan..We just never Learn..to the Delight of Many other Nations..
Thanks to NEOCON Policys..We still Pay the Price in American Blood..for the Domino's..That Yet will Fall in Failure..As you Once said.."Something Evil..This way Cometh.."....Indeed..Sir..indeed..
Posted by: Jim Ticehurst | 26 October 2011 at 05:29 PM
Er... IIUC, The only "news" here is the candid admission by the Taliban of their Pakistani support, right?
Posted by: toto | 26 October 2011 at 05:34 PM
Obviously, there is an easy solution to all this. Wise up and get real about war goals in Afghanistan - what can be achieved, and what can't, whether it is feasible to pursue policies there that run counter to what Pakistan perceives as their vital national interest (it appears it isn't, really), what the US interest is in this etc pp.
Oh wait, false answer. Let me check my Weekly Standard talking points ...
OBVIOUSLY, the only reasonable solution is to launch a full scale surprise attack on Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran, preferably at the same time. Nobody will expect that, thus the US will achieve total and complete strategic surprise.
This brilliant move will in particular catch realists in the US, Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan completely off guard, and it will demonstrate the indomitable US will to boldly lead where nobody else dares to go (and it will also punish these pesky little countries and the people who happen to live there that dare defy the will of American think think punditry - they really have it coming for that).
Posted by: confusedponderer | 26 October 2011 at 05:49 PM
Cato
Why would the Taliban want to cause trouble between the US and Pakistan? Relations are terrible between the two countries. They have a sanctuary in Pakistan and have more or less fought the Pakistan army to a stndstill in Waziristan. Why would they want to stir up the Pakistanis? pl
Posted by: turcopolier | 26 October 2011 at 05:51 PM
So how does Pakistan's military and law enforcement feel about all this? Haven't their casualties been far higher than ours and NATO's? How about the Afghan soldiers and policemen?
Obviously this won't come as news to them, but where's the outrage? Why are their top officers letting their people die and be injured when the Pakistani government plays both sides of the battlefield against each other?
Posted by: jerseycityjoan | 26 October 2011 at 07:59 PM
Well a few things strike me about this. Recently read Syed Saleem Shahzad's book "Inside Al-Qaeda and the Taliban" which really goes into detail on all the major factions within the Taliban and also talks about the role of the ISI.
Firstly on the ISI, it is known that alot of devout Muslims in the ISI retired after 9/11 and alot more were expelled during Musharaf's purges of the military and ISI. Could well be this group that is providing support. I look at it as similar to former US vets joining patriot and militia movements in the US. In Pakistan its Jihadist and Talib groups that these people join after military service. Could give the impression that the trainers are official ISI.
Secondly which faction of the Taliban are these commanders speaking of? The Tehrik E Taliban (AKA Pakistani Taliban) have a large interest in inciting a conflict between the US and Pakistan. As do the Al Qaeda groups like 313 Brigade and Lashkar Zil.
But anyway wouldn't be suprised. Pakistan does have long links to not only the Haqqani Network but also the Quetta Shura (or classic Taliban).
Posted by: Colm O' Toole | 26 October 2011 at 08:37 PM
Read "Ghost Wars" by Stephen Coll. Pakistan has played us like a violin for thirty years.
Posted by: John Waring | 26 October 2011 at 11:22 PM
http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2005/07/current-affairs-truth-of-matter.html
Posted by: Arun | 27 October 2011 at 12:08 AM
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6161
Posted by: Arun | 27 October 2011 at 12:10 AM
Obviously I am not Pat but this appears to be the place to start.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/?q=Secret%20Pakistan
Posted by: securecare | 27 October 2011 at 02:21 AM
I've never seen a willing violin in my entire life. I suggest the answer lies elsewhere. We built the violin. We put it in their hands. We provide the music sheets. We payed for the tutor. We even payed for the PR that, occasionally, and in less than MSM forums, TOLD us we were being played. And so on.
Are we victim (played)? Or are we perp (player). For whatever apparently inexplicable reason/s?
Complex...but the biggest clues lie at Tora Bora.
Posted by: jonst | 27 October 2011 at 05:19 AM
jonst
Nah. We are just stupid. pl
Posted by: turcopolier | 27 October 2011 at 08:13 AM
Do we or should we consider the Taliban or ISI as terrorist organizations?
Posted by: William R. Cumming | 27 October 2011 at 08:44 AM
Is that we are just stupid? There was/(is ?) an entrenched coterie of "South Asia" experts, whose world view seems to be stuck in the 1950s, which at least in the press and in the literature seem to dominate the discourse (until recently). Their names appeared all over the State Department sponsored meetings and in testimony to Congress committees. They have had the greatest trouble in facing the reality of Pakistan. Instead they view Pakistan through the lens of "Pakistan & USSR" or "Pakistan & China" or "Pakistan & India".
Posted by: Arun | 27 October 2011 at 09:33 AM
Colonel,
Love how you don't beat around the bush, succinct and to the point. LOL
Posted by: J | 27 October 2011 at 09:41 AM
Well Col, I'm over 60. So I don't rule "stupid" out in any circumstances. But if stupid is the explanation, that is some "stupid". You must agree.
There is an old saying in law:
"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
This is rises to the level of malice. If I knew, (and I did) me, a civilian, what does that say about them?
And I still say there are lots of things to learn from Tora Bora.....
Posted by: jonst | 27 October 2011 at 10:54 AM
An inquiring mind should check into the ownership structure of the two ammonium nitrate fertilizer plants in Pakistan that source the raw material for IEDs. One wonders where that would lead.
Posted by: bth | 27 October 2011 at 12:07 PM
This is from a highly reliable Pakistani with long eperience and continuing contacts on both sides of the border:
"I don't know these fellows. Never heard their names. However, the ONLY accessible Taliban found in Kabul belong to the Hizb-e-Islami, Gulbaddin Hikmatyar's group, now irrelevant.
Back in the 1980s he was the ISI's and, therefore, the CIA's favorite. After the Soviet withdrawal, he was expected to take over. He did, but was unacceptable to most Afghans . Soon after he was "deserted" by the ISI. Last year, his entire force was almst eliminated in Jalalabad by the Haqqanis but for a rescue operation by Karzai's forces.
Yes, they would be easily bought by the CIA to say anything against Pakistan/ISI----they would willingly do so anyway!
Anybody receiving assistance from the ISI would NEVER disclose it, for fear of losing support"
Posted by: mbrenner | 27 October 2011 at 01:21 PM
I think Col. Lang pinpointed the problem some considerable time ago; They don't want to be like us. They are not us. They do not want the same things we want.
To put that another way; The American "One size fits all" democratic model is not their model and anyone who starts from the assumption that Pakistani motivations match Americas is doomed to failure before they open their mouth.
To put that yet another way; Pakistan has not "Played America like a violin" they didn't need to. They just sat back and let nature take its course as the hill tribes have been doing for what? A Thousand years?
Posted by: walrus | 27 October 2011 at 01:34 PM
bth:
"An inquiring mind should check into the ownership structure of the two ammonium nitrate fertilizer plants in Pakistan that source the raw material for IEDs. One wonders where that would lead."
An inquiring mind should consider why on one hand Western Aid Agencies were handing out Ammonium Nitrate fertiliser in parts of Afghanistan and "we" - Australians(?) were sending patrols out to confiscate it ASAP on the other.
Posted by: walrus | 27 October 2011 at 01:38 PM
Dr. Brenner
Hikmatyar may have been a friend to ISI but never to the CIA. The man who headed the CIA mission in Pakistan back in the USSR war days went to a meeting with Hikmatyar to meet him. GH's first words were, "you have come to kill me have you not?" Don't let the "America the conspiratorial devil" stuff sweep you into such judgments. You consistently seek rational patterns in US Government actions. Such a thoing would be a rarity. There is something in this story that tells me it is largely true. pl
Posted by: turcopolier | 27 October 2011 at 01:40 PM
walrus
OK. We played the violin for ourselves. We usually do. In 40 years of doing this sort of thing, it has been a contiinuing theme that the Americans deceive themselves about the locals. It is also a continuing theme that conspiracy theory buffs do not believe that the USA is as inept as it is,
As for the ammonium nitrate, do you really think all these characters wandering around out there have coordinated their efforts so that they do not conflict? pl
Posted by: turcopolier | 27 October 2011 at 01:45 PM
Pakistan's ammonium nitrate manufacturer:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44346944/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/t/pakistani-fertilizer-fuels-afghan-bombs-us-troop-deaths/
About Pakarab Fertilizers:
http://www.fatima-group.com/pakarabfertilizers/companyoverview.php
"Pakarab Fertilizers Limited was established as a result of protocol concluded and signed on November 15, 1972 by the Government of Pakistan to further strengthen and develop fraternal ties between Islamic Republic of Pakistan and State of Abu Dhabi."
"Under the privatization policy of Government of Pakistan, Pakarab Fertilizers Limited was privatized on July 14, 2005 at a cost of Rs.14.125 billion. It was acquired by a consortium of Fatima Group and Arif Habib Group."
Posted by: Arun | 27 October 2011 at 02:13 PM
The structure of the Arif Habib company, holders of 50% of Pakarab Fertilizers:
http://www.arifhabibcorp.com/tree.htm
Posted by: Arun | 27 October 2011 at 02:15 PM