Qathafi's end, etc.

How did he die?  Who cares?  IMO the "Gs" killed him after they got through kicking him around.  They are not soldiers.  They are undisciplined civilian enthusiasts with a smidgin of training.  If MQ had died in an ambush or as the "Gs" shot their way into his hideout a lot of you would think nothing of it.

The Washington/New York foreign policy clique is now wringing its hands over the fate of Libya.  "They might not be ready fpr DEMOCRACY.  Oh my!  The US should establish a another Coalition Provisional Administration."  Yes, sure, the last one (Iraq) was such a success that the Iraqi government that we fostered has now thrown us out.

Americans can't seem to get it into our thick skulls that other people do not necessarily want to be like us and that this does not mean that they are retarded (oops - mentally special).

LEAVE THE LIBYANS ALONE!.  Let them work out their problems.  They are not children.  If they want one country or three that is THEIR  BUSINESS, not ours.  The think tank crowd can't leave people alone.  What would they do for a living if they did?  What would their next book or TV appearance be about?  pl

Comments

[Jim Ticehurst]

Col..I agree..Its Not Our Problem..or our Business..Let The French have thier own "Saddam Scenario" and Iraq Moment ..if they want to meddle in this...

It doesn't matter if the "G's" shot "Q" or hung him...the end result would have been the same..they had thier "Justice" and so did the PAN AM familys and victims..End of another Chapter..
I also don't like the Hypocrisy of Statements by our Government that "We are not in the Business of regime Change.."..and then go out and do exactly That..

I also dont like Threatening other Middle East Leaders with a "Whupping Too.."..This all is going to put the United States in a Very Delicate and Nasty Position Next year IMO..

[jerseycityjoan]

Your point is valid, of course. But is leaving people alone something we are capable of doing, and is it truly what the world wants and expects of us?

Our history has always included "interfering" with people because of course the Indians were here already when we got here -- though greatly scattered across the country -- and now, they mostly are gone and have been for over a century. Shortly after the final lower 48 state joined the Union, Europe started destroying itself in WWI, we started becoming the savior of the free world, etc, etc.

At this point it seems to me we have the all the responsibility of Empire but not many of the advantages. A particular problem is that instead of tribute flowing to us from the mostly prosperous countries our military and nuclear weapons protect, we protect them for free at a minimum; at worst, we give them foreign aid too!

We can't afford to do this anymore. We should have stopped doing this years ago, and now millions of needy Americans who have a comparively small social safety net get to see our allies' citizens receive their guaranteed cradle to grave health care, much higher level of income support during times of trouble and pensions.

So on the one hand, my new mantra is: Let's spend our money on us for a change! Trust me, it is.

But it's also clear to me that if things to wrong in Libya, we'll be blamed and will be expected to contribute many billions to clean up the mess, if only to keep Libya from becoming a terrorist haven.

Of course I know that the people who want to get into Libya don't have the broader concerns I have -- they just want the power and money that comes from the big contracts and exercising influence abroad -- but I don't see, at this time, how we can keep our noses out of the world's business either.

Our presence and big mouth is something that many complain about but many rely on too. A revolutionary change in our role in the world is financially necessary but will it happen? And will the money saved go to all Americans or just the elite?

[E L]

In re WaPo/NYT: “It's difficult to get a man to understand something if his salary depends on him not understanding it.” —Upton Sinclair

[turcopolier]

jerseycityjoan

"is it truly what the world wants and expects of us?"

Why would you care what the world thinks of us? I have carried with my brothers and sisters enough of the world's business. Let us do what we thnk is correct. pl

[jerseycityjoan]

When was the last time we did that? -- put ourselves first based on what was right for us, without giving much regard to other countries? -- and I mean all of America first, not just the elite? Certainly not since FDR got elected.

While you and many others connected with our Armed Services may feel enough is enough, can you convince the people at the Pentagon and Congress to cut the defense budget and manpower by a 1/4 or 1/3, as well as eliminate many of our current commitment?

There are things we do alone that should continue to be done, but by the many. We as well as others would suffer in various ways if no one took up some of our self-imposed burden.

There is much to work out. Military people have every right to feel it's time to say, "we have sacrificed enough for others who would not sacrifice for us." Actually, that's exactly the kind of the things the US should start telling the world, too.

It is time for all to accept, for the first time since the Industrial Revolution, a world in which neither a Pax Brittanica nor a Pax Americana reigns.

[turcopolier]

jersycityjoan

I didn't say anything about what is best for us. i said "what is correct." pl

[optimax]

A civilized society, such as our own, would have tellied Kadafi's trial into the consumer's little brain. A lot of money and reputations will not now be made as it was in the O.J. trial. The wasate of a natural resource--depravity. CSILibya.

[Fred]

No Coalition Provisional Administration 2? There goes my chance to be junior assistant pro-council! (Though I would be happy to settle as a plane cargo handler; I do know how to use a pallet jack. Who would miss a pallet full of $20s?)

[graywolf]

I agree with hands-off.
If the most recent 50 or so years in the ME are tracked, it will turn out badly for the USA, no matter what we do or don't do.
So, why risk lives and/or money?
I disagree with "they are not children".
If anything has been clear in the last 50 or so years of ME history it is Arab infantilism.
Not wanting to be like us is OK - if they were to have a viable alternative.
They don't.

[Bill H.]

"the Indians were here already when we got here ... and now, they mostly are gone and have been for over a century."

Well, some very good friends of mine in the Navaho Nation might disagree with that assessment.

[William R. Cumming]

Many of the elites in the USA want to maintain by any means the illusion that "they" are in control! Thus, we often meddle when common sense would tell one not to do so. And usually that meddling is not based on knowledge but ignorance.

[markfromireland]

I think Sir, that America is at a point when what is correct and what is best for you as a people are the same thing. Enlightened self-interest is a very good basis on which to rebuild a country and America has the natural resources and (still has) enough talented scientists and engineers to be able to use them to maximum benefit.

[Twit]

Col Lang,
Out of curiosity, is there a reason you used the word "correct" instead of "right"?

[Cold War Zoomie]

"Not wanting to be like us is OK - if they were to have a viable alternative."

What does that mean?

[Fiorangela]

How charmingly naive, Col. Lang:

"LEAVE THE LIBYANS ALONE!. Let them work out their problems. They are not children. If they want one country or three that is THEIR BUSINESS, not ours. The think tank crowd can't leave people alone."

You did correctly emphasize "THEIR BUSINESS." Regarding business, from an American pov, mi casa su casa. The World Ban and IMF are already salivating at the prospect of lending to Libya; Citicorp will soon have banksters in major Libyan cities.
This morning it was reported that Qaddafi had stashed $200 billion in assets; the assets will be "repatriated."

Alastair Crooke described the blueprint of the new, improved Coalition Provisional Authority--Jeff Feltman plays the role of Proconsul Paul Bremmer: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MJ22Ak01.html

[noname]

jerseycityjoan, please don't fall in the us-them nationalistic trap. It is not about 'us' versus 'them'. I am one of 'them'. And some of your elites did earned my admiration and love. You have great scientists, artists, writers, musicians, etc. Some of your businesspeople are fine as well as some of your statesman. But when it comes to foreign policy and economics the things are totally shity. So please try to realize - the mess you are recently experiencing was what big swath of the rest of the world had been forced to live with for the past few decades by the idiots in DC. And everything boils down to bunch of pseudo-conservative think-tanks and lobbyists who pull the strings of the political hores in DC. Stop selling me the 'freedom and democracy' crap. I had enough of hippocracy, marauders and psychopaths with american origin. They installed similar morons to 'rule' us locally.

[turcopolier]

noname

"They installed similar morons to 'rule' us locally." you are just another whiner who won't take responsibility for the tyrants that you tolerate. pl

[turcopolier]

fiorangela

"How charmingly naive," thanks. it has been a long time since anyone called me that. I enjoy the phenomenon of the lack of any sense of irony in many of you. pl

[turcopolier]

twit

I suppose that "correct" has more of a "feel" of ethically sound conduct. pl

[turcopolier]

markfromireland

Yes but the chance of agreeing on what constitutes "enlightened self interest" is small. pl

[turcopolier]

BilH

Yes. people who think there are no Indians in America are either Eurotrash or fm New York city. pl

[Ken Halliwell]

Summary execution and public display of a former dictator is a custom the Libyan partisans may have acquired from their former colonizer:
http://www.custermen.com/ItalyWW2/ILDUCE/Mussolini.htm

Oh my goodness! Is there any hope for the ignorant and depraved Italians... I mean Libyans.

(Tongue-in-cheek for those who need a signal indicating irony.)

[turcopolier]

greywolf

This reminds me of a converdsation I had in'04 with a group of young people in their twernties. they were all Jewish and neocons to the core. They all agreed that the Arabs and Muslims had no culture worth respecting or tolerating. they were speaking of Iraq. the historical irony was lost on them because their own grop was obviously (to them) worthy of reverence. pl

[Discourses]

Col. sir,

Re: "What would they do for a living if they did? What would their next book or TV appearance be about?"

Maybe they should try rescuing their OWN hoi polloi in the good ol' U.S. of A from poverty & immense suffering.

http://discourses.typepad.com/blog/2011/10/aaron-huey-talks.html

[YT]

Col.,

Re:"They all agreed that the arabs and muslims had no culture worth respecting or tolerating."

Sir, I'm reluctant to agree with these ziocon fascists.

I happen to have years of unhappy experiences with them & they seem to blame their lot on everyone else, be it the israelis, Americans, overseas Chinese, Russians, etc.

I've never seen any ethnicity heap that much blame on others.