"Dr. Ron Paul's 11-Point Plan" by Laura Trice

 
"Have Americans read Dr. Ron Paul's written plan for the country? Are Americans ready to upset the apple cart in a controlled and methodical way for the betterment of the greater good? The main source I am referencing here is Dr. Ron Paul's website, so that we can debate his priorities and proposed approaches. I have paraphrased items from his site; however, I encourage the reader to thoroughly review all the links."  Trice

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I don't quite understand the dismissive way that Dr. Paul is treated by the MSM.  His plan is deeply libertarian and worth discussing.  pl

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-trice/ron-paul-11-point-plan_b_947832.html

Comments

[The Twisted Genius]

The possibility of having Paul's ideas on bringing the troops home, ending foreign aid and minding our own business is just too frightening for the Israel first crowd. I'd love to hear these ideas discussed on a more serious level. I'd also like to hear more about his economic and fiscal ideas. I have no idea how his ideas would affect the financial and corporate elites. He states that he would end the corporate stranglehold on the White House, but does that mean that they will declare victory and go home or will Paul be a Teddy Roosevelt trust buster?

[bth]

I view him as I do Dennis Kucinich. In small sound bites they seem really on to something, but when they talk for more than 5 minutes you realize they are both moonbeams.

[eakens]

Anybody who can speak for more than five minutes and continue to make sense has the good sense to avoid politics.

[Jim Ticehurst]

As Someone who also Loves Our Constitution and Understands the Depth and Passion of its Preamble..I am Alwys in Appreciation of Ron Pauls Apperances and Comments and Beliefs..To Me He is the true Voice of Our Founding fathers..Men like Thomas Jefferson..Who Are Speaking to the American People today Through Him..Mr.Paul understands thier fears of a Big..Abusive Federal Government..He Understands Their Dedication to Obtaining Freedom of the people from Tyrrany..Dr.Paul is Correct to be passionate about STATES RIGHTS..and limiting the Role and power of the Federal Government..and the Military/Industrial Complex and Wall Street and K Street Greed that Influences and Owns Our Federal Government so that We ..The American People No longer have a Represenative Government or One that Cares about The the WILL of the PEOPLE..Thank You Col. Lang for this Post..

[jonst]

Could I challenge you, respectfully, to give concrete examples of where you disagree with him? Or could you relay, or direct me to, specific language that indicates he is a "moonbeam". I challenge you on Kucinich too.

Now...things one disagrees with these two individuals? Sure. I can point to that. In both cases. But "moonbeams"? This is the same dismissive tone that seem to baffle the Col. And definitely baffles me. There are many more examples of "moonbeams" than Paul. Are you listening McCain/Palin/Perry? Or Denny Hoyer. Or Wasserman down in Florida. These clowns mouth the same old tired positions that got us into this mess we are in. Do they change? They do not. Do we keep listening to them. Sadly...we do. It that madness? It seems so to me.

[R Whitman]

Ron Paul has a lot of good ideas such as those on foreign ploicy and defense but his financial ideas are just flat incomprehensible.

The main reason the MSM does not take him seriously is that he does not look like a President, he looks like the National Grandfather. For the record I am in the same age group.

[walrus]

The problem with Dr. Pauls ideas are Twofold:

1. You can have Jim Ticehursts "Big...abusive" Federal Government making and administering regulations or you can have "Big... Abusive" Corporations sticking it up your....

I strongly suggest that the power of corporations dwarfs that of individual American states. No one says Government is perfect - all we know is that we believe that Liberal democracies running with Webers bureaucratic model are the least imperfect systems we know of.

Of course that begs the question as to whether America is running a Weberian public service model. I would argue that it doesn't, it appears to me to be running a cross between Webers ideas and plain outright corruption, especially all those Goldman Sachs Alumni doing "public service" running the Treasury.

2. The entire Libertarian model denies the existence of a prior investment by generations of Americans in the public goods that all Libertarians enjoy without thinking about it.

To put that another way, my Ancestors weren't a bunch of Libertarians who trooped off the Mayflower, they were effectively socialists who clung together to maintain a toe hold on the continent. Over many generations they invested in building the institutions, customs and practices we take for granted, let alone the physical public goods.

So when Dr. Paul gets up on his hind legs and starts preaching, I say Balony! You get to enjoy the fruits of the labour of every person who went before you, and you in turn will pay your fair share and make your own contribution for the good of future generations of Americans.

As for the nation being built by "rugged self reliant individualists" I say Balony to that too. It's self serving myth. America is what it is today because of the intricate and rich systems of rights and responsibilities that support its existence. "Rugged Individualists" conquered the West and built the railways? Those Conestoga wagons organised in convoys for a reason. The railways? Care to think of the intricate logistic networks that supported their construction?

Of course all nations have myths, and people are always ready to rely on them to push their point of view. How many books have been written for example on the German mythology that was exploited by Hitler? The proponents of lower taxation and smaller Government are simply doing likewise.

Why doesn't Dr. Paul get more traction? Simple. Corporations and the very rich actually like socialism when it means foisting their losses onto ordinary taxpayers like the "too big too fail" banks, or otherwise plundering public funds like military contractors. Of course when profits are made, we trot out the libertarian rugged individualist argument don't we?

Dr. Pauls ideas lead directly to a Kleptocratic Russian model of "Democracy" Putin style if you ask me.

[rjj]

Is it possible you may have leapt to the wrong conclusion?

[bth]

Well for starters earlier this year Kucinich sued the Capitol cafeteria for $150K for an olive pit in his sandwich 3 years back. Then there was his Dept of Peace and his proposal to ban handguns.

Ron Paul claims Social Security, Medicare are both equivalent to slavery and are unconstitutional despite Supreme Court rulings to the contrary. And then there is his desire to close the EPA, the DOE, the IRS and the Federal Reserve.

Kucinich and Ron Paul will go off into a corner talking amongst themselves on the college circuit while the rest of the country just moves on. They make for great discussion like G. Gordon Liddy and Ellsberg did when they were the flavor of the day.

Kucinich and Paul are entertaining and irrelevant.

[rjj]

thanks for the analysis and forecast.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2008/06/obama-as-mitzva.html#comment-6a00d8341c72e153ef00e552c3b3ce8833

[The Twisted Genius]

I read through Paul's economic proposals... bth is right. I still wish his national security proposals would get more coverage.

[highlander]

Why doesn't Dr. Paul get more traction? Simple. Corporations and the very rich actually like socialism when it means foisting their losses onto ordinary taxpayers like the "too big too fail" banks, or otherwise plundering public funds like military contractors.....Walrus

Walrus

You are on to something there Laddie!

But add, like most of the postings on this thread, the average American taxpayer,can no longer figure out what his true personal interests are.

And even if he can, his personal political decision making grid,is so damn irrational, he can still be easily manipulated to vote against his own interests.

It's late in the day in Rome.

[Jim Ticehurst]

"The Power of Corporations Dwarfs that of Individual American States..?" Walrus..I disagree..No Individual American State has the Power (and Influence) To run an International Ponzi Scheme like the Sub Prime Loan Fiasco and almost Collapse Financial systems and Currencys around the World and here in America Like the Corporations (AIG ..Sachs etc) did..They Own Our Government..top Down..They Buy the POWER..and Buy Political Influence and Policy..

People Running Our Government are so Culpable..and Guilty..They wont even Hold the Guilty Partys accountable..The Federal Government is Buying off and Undermining the Powers of individual States..so it can Regulate everything..Our Current Federal Government Administrators are much closer to establishing that Kleptocratic form of Government than Ron Paulever could as president..I don't agree with every thing Dr.Paul thinks or says..But I Like the Fact that he is out there exercising His Free Speech ideas..and they Resonate with many People..including the Next generation..who dont care for the
Obama/Soros form of Socialism and Government Control either..Libertarians have good ideas..and Have valid Points of View beyond the Now extreme Left and Right Wing Views or even those ofthe Tea Party "Patriots"..The Operators of Our Government..Waste Money..resources and Human Lifes..depending on the Operators and thier Motives..
It is a Far Cry from the "federal Government" Our Founding Fathers Intended and Created..Its Powers have now been Bought and Sold..
America was built by Rugged Individuals..Those who suffered Harsh Winters and Brutal Existance in our Continental Army..Those who Created Towns and Villages.Shops..Roads..Dams...and those like my Great Grand Parents who came West by Covered Wagons under Harsh Conditions..to Carve Farms out of the Wilderness..We need to Move Forward Now..Not make a Complete Circle back to tyrrany.. and taxation without representation..
and a system of Barons where "The King can Do No Wrong"
As a Citizen whom has always Paid the Local.. State and Federal Government My Fair Share of Tax's..because I was Blessed to always have a job..I want My Nation to Help provide those other 45 Percent of Americans living in Poverty and not able to Pay Any Tax's..thier opportunity to Live the American dream too..with Real Jobs..Not Soviet Style..Not Fascist Style..but American style..with Liberty and Justice for ALL..

[steve]

Laura Trice's summary of congressman Paul's position on the environment:

"11. Energy Independence: Eliminate the federal gas tax of $0.18 per gallon and eliminate the EPA, allowing prosecution of polluters to answer to citizens, not Washington, and allowing coal, oil, nuclear and other forms of energy to be safely explored."

That will only work if individual citizens have university level environmental experts on call and a bevy of lawyers on retainer, all of whom will work for free or on a contingency basis.

Beyond that, I would assume that if you abolish the EPA you would also be abolishing its regulations which would form the basis for much litigation.

[Medicine Man]

I'm kinda inclined to agree with you, Walrus. I find Ron Paul to be sensible about quite a few things; especially notable for how far he is willing to diverge in opinion from his colleagues. I also find more than a few of the core ideas of libertarianism attractive.

That said, the basic critique of libertarians holds up for many of them. Their sense of political history seems to only go back about 40 years and they are largely fixated on theory rather than the practical role government plays in people's lives. Quite a few also tend to be noticeably utopian.

[Jake]

At least the man is honest... Yes some of his beliefs are outside the box and to some foolish. So which President has not had any of these moments? We have one right now that does some rather foolish things. The last one was what? Brilliant? Statesman like? With no equal? Did not do anything foolish?

Reporters like Chris Wallace ( and many other reporters)are the real problems. Most of his line of questioning to Paul are nothing more than set up questions. Its these very arrogant and condescending Fifth Estate folk who really help do the damage to this Country. Then we have the Goober voters who rather than get to really know the candidates focus on the sound bites rather than the substance.

Before you make any comments about Ron Paul and discount him. Get to actually meet the man. It just might change your view.

But also remember, once one becomes the residence of the 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW. One finds out that they now have some 200,000+ friends they never knew they had before. Many of which hang around in garage parties in Virginia poking needles into voodoo doll look-a likes of you...

Time for term limits....

[jonst]

This is exactly the kind of thing that kills me. I disagree with some of the proposals of Paul you point to. I do agree with disbanding the DOE and the Fed. And perhaps the IRS. I understand what he was getting at with regard to SS and Medicare. But I disagree with him.

I don't know anything about olive pit issue. I agree with the Dept of Peace proposal. I disagree with banning handguns. But none of them seem 'moonbeamish' to me. Any more, that is, than I hear out of Obama, and Pelosi, and Cantor, and Perry et al. They propose things I disagree with. The moonbeam comments, as far as I'm concerned are the scorn of a group of people whose views run the gamut from L to M. And anything else is outside the 'mainstream' and therefore moonbeamish.

[rjj]

Paul's interpretation of the second law of thermodynamics is incongruent with mine - indeed, it verges on the unorthodox. Therefore I will have to support one of the Corporate Party-endorsed, Official State Media-approved, AIPAC-funded candidates.

I do wish it were otherwise.

CURSES!! This new format is a textbook example of Postfunctionalist Design. First the navigational disimprovements and now (DO TAKE CARE!!!) using the preview button disappears the posts.

Apologies if this post is duplicated.

[swampy]

"At least the man is honest... Yes some of his beliefs are outside the box and to some foolish."

I having trouble with this statement. What ideas would be considered "in the box" and what is considered "outside the box"?

Too often the ideas inside the box are way past their due date.

[bth]

Well you asked me about Kucinich and Ron Paul and not the others. DK& RP at least think about the issues and are willing to put forth ideas for consideration. Pelosi, Cantor and Perry, well you realize at some point that they are in it for themselves and the normal middle class Americans be damned. The rich and powerful get their due by them. But the normal folks get a shit sandwich every year and are required to ask for more.

[William P. Fitzgerald III]

Pat Lang,

11. Forget about the environment and, without the tax on fuel, transportation infrastructure.
10. The $5000.00 disbursement may work.
9. Anti-union and pro employer. The capitalists dream.
8. Require the ownership of guns? Completely bonkers.
7. I probably agree with the part about misuse of funds, if he's referring to diverting them to the general treasury.
6. What was 6?
5. Immigration, same old stuff about protecting the borders, nothing about the employers of illegals.
4. On national defense he's contradictory. He proposes ending the nation's international involvement, yet advocates keeping a strong war making capability.
3. His tax proposals would ensure that we'll be ruled by an oligarchy. A wealthy and powerful oligarchy.

2. Abolish the Fed? Would we then go to a barter system, gold coins, states printing their own currency, or a new central bank? Does he have a plan.
1. If we were to balance the budget in one year, does anyone think that the result would not be a social and economic catastrophe. With the possible exception of the hedge fund guys and their ilk.

The rugged individualism thing is a nice national myth with some basis, but the reality of our national story was far more complicated.

I'll avoid previewing. Perhaps I'll give it a shot when I have a shorter post.

WPFIII

[Roy G.]

I too have found many of Dr. Paul's positions to be appealing, but others to be so outside of reality as to make him an unsuitable candidate. Right off the bat in his 11 Point Plan, he says 'abolish the EPA and let the courts decide.' Really? This is a prime example of why Libertarianism is more of a thought experiment than a realistic strategy of government, because it deals in false ideals and ignores today's reality, where Corporations have captured the judicial system as well. This is the problem with Libertarianism in a nutshell, that it's interpretation of liberty and freedom would allow Corporations to run even more roughshod over We The People by removing the Thin Government Line that is often the last bit of protection; where would the US environment be without the EPA? And, would we really want the FDA gone?

[Ramojus]

Mr. Fitzgerald,

Completely agree w/ every point you make, especially about Dr. Paul's #2, banishing the Federal Reserve.

Every country, I believe, has a central bank. What would replace the Fed?

[A Facebook User]

He vexes the minions of The Powers that Be.

As there is little risk of his enforcing lact-ovo-vegetarianism (or other crackpot schemes) at the point of a gun, that's worth some support.

[dan of steele]

I suppose reading FreeRepublic will give you a sensationalized version of Kucinich going moonbeamish on some poor cafeteria owner. According to this article however http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/01/29/Kucinich-settles-olive-pit-lawsuit/UPI-30641296332570/ considerable damage was done resulting in 6 teeth needing repair and multiple surgeries ending with Restaurant Associates settling with DK.

what would any of you have done? just walk it off?