« Well This Explains It... | Main | Turkey is a NATO member state. »

17 September 2011

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

William R. Cumming

Okay so let's stop treating Israel and Saudi Arabia as allies and discuss which nation-state by its policies official and unofficial is the greater existential threat to the continued success of the USA?

Lars

I wonder if the Obama administration realizes the extent of the damage such a veto will cause? And that is not just internationally, but domestically. A large segment of the Democratic base is a lot more evenhanded on this issue. Of course, Mr. Obama foolishly seem to take his base for granted and such a veto would reinforce that.

I would suggest that a negotiated settlement would arrive much sooner if Israel did not have automatic US support for its actions.

GBJJ

A very wise and perceptive post. This needed to be said.

FB Ali

I agree. A UN veto will be a dramatic way of reminding the Arab and Muslim world where the US stands, and what to expect of it in the future.

Unfortunately, this facet of US policy is not the only one that is estranging the United States from a large part of the world. Another recent Op-Ed in the NYT describes this well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/11/opinion/sunday/and-hate-begat-hate.html?pagewanted=all

steve

I wonder if this is not somewhat related to the unwillingness of the US to back Mubarak. As you posted last spring, Colonel, the Saudis were certainly upset at the way the US treated him.

I assume that one of the goals of the US-Saudi "partnership" was to keep the monarchy intact. If that's no longer seen as reliable, there's no reason for the Saudi government to keep its end of the quid pro quo specifically, in this case, its acquiesence in US policy towards Israel.

J

Colonel,

Look at how many governments are now under the Israeli 'iron' thumb -- U.S., U.K., N.Z., Australia, Germany, Belgium, to name a few of the major ones, omitting some of the smaller nations for brevity sake. Look at how all have let themselves be turned into eunuchs on behalf of a postage stamp, making their foreign policy subservient to Israeli dictates and Israeli whims.

My question, did Israeli use a pair of berdezios or a knife to castrate each nation turning them into Israeli eunuchs? It appears the Israeli state used a pair of berdezios quietly castrating so their citizenry wouldn't notice until its too little too late.

Norbert M Salamon

With the USA dependent on oil imports, upsetting an area which has the largest reserves [excluding tar sands of Canada and Venezuela] does not sound like rational behavior.

It is notable that since the WTI has been decoupled form international oil prices, aka Brent, the Governor of the Bank of Canada has voiced opinion that Canada should take steps to export to the Pacific ountries by building a new pipeline. It is of interest that this statement opposes the ideas of the Harper Government, but concurs with that of the oil producers and the Alberta Government.

walrus

I agree 100% with Col. Langs sad but true observation. The most that could be expected would be for America to abstain. Even that would remove any Jewish funding from Obamas re-election campaign and finish Hilary Clinton in public office.

Unless... Saudi Arabia could replace AIPAC as a source of election funds? ASPAC anyone???

Babak Makkinejad

Col. Lang:

So we have had John Brown (Osama bin Ladin) and the Raid on Harper's Ferry (attack on US on 09/11/2001).

I guess we are now waiting for the Dred Scott decision to be handed down (UNSC vote against the State of Palestine) which causes people to become "stark, raving mad abolionists".

Next stop will be the attack on Fort Sumter which triggers the wider war - lasting decades I suppose.

Roy G.

The mask is off, in all respects. Years of corruption, thuggery and double-dealing are coming home to roost.

Remember a few years ago, when it was commonly asserted that 'peace-loving' Muslims were supposed to stand up to their militant brethren? Well, that time is now for Jews - their religion has been hijacked, and used to cover the taint of colonialism, nationalism and ethnic cleansing for the greater glory of the the Zionist state.

J

WRC,

My incessant rantings over the past several months against 'dual citizenship', is frinally showing itself in glaring detail with this upcoming U.N. Palestinian state issue, 'dual citizen' American nationals are working on behalf of the Israeli government lobbying foreign governments as private American citizens, clearly in violation of the Logan Act [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act ]. This clearly shows which flag they salute, doesn't it? And it sure isn't our U.S. one. Time to jerk their American citizenship, and send them packing to the postage stamp they apparently value more than our U.S..

J

WRC,

Here's the link to the article in question:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-09-13/news/fl-jjps-letters-0914-20110913_1_consulates-area-synagogues-jewish-federation

John Lamoreaux

> People like Turki do not make such threats idly.

They do. All the time, especially if they're Saudis. Turki's been saying this for years. Here, he's just recycling copy from 1947.

The Saudis blustered then, too. They'll cancel all oil concessions, they said. They can't hold back indignant Muslim youth. The honor of Islam is at stake.

It was all nonsense, of course. Documentary evidence shows that the king's main concern in the 1940s was finding a way to stop the Hashemites from expanding their influence into mandatory Palestine -- and secondarily, saving face before nationalist criticisms coming from Syria and Egypt.

Concessions? U.S. oil companies rightly did not regard the king's threats as serious. They kept bringing in gear and men, and were getting on with the business of building the kingdom.

The youth? The Saudi military contribution was not 200,000 mujahidin (as their textbooks still claim), but 1200 hollow-chested young men: of whom many did not even know how to fire a rifle. Only 100 were ever actually trained. A year later, the king followed up with the generous despatch of eight armored cars and some trucks.

As for the honor of Islam, the king didn't worry much about appeasing the clerics, and wouldn't until 1979. He'd laid that problem to bed in the 1920s by asking the Brits to use their fancy flying machines and efficient machine guns to wipe out his ikhwan tribal opponents, i.e., the religious folk who'd brought him to power.

Thus began the Saudi policy of publicly pretending to support the Palestinians, while privately behaving as if Palestinians were nothing but a nuisance.

When 1967 rolled around, the king couldn't decide whom he hated more, Nasser or the Palestinians. Admittedly, Nasser had been behaving rudely of late, what with his expedition to Yemen and use of chemical weapons against Saudi border towns. And besides, he was still angry at Nasser for his having made such much fun of the reactionary KSA in the late 1950s and early 1960s -- and just because the king refused to abolish the divinely-ordained institution of slavery.

Rule of thumb: If an Arab state speaks publicly about the Palestinian cause, bank on it being other than the truth.

The days of Arab states wiping out their Palestinians are hopefully over. Kuwait and Jordan have maybe learned from their mistakes. KSA and other Arab states have actually been taking a pretty productive line on the problem, since 2001.

I'd wager that KSA is working hard, right now, to find a way to forestall the Palestinian request for a vote at the UN. They've trying, for nearly a decade now, with the US, UK, Canada, Turkey, Jordan, and the IDF, to get Palestine ready for statehood. A bid for statehood now likely is seen as putting that work at risk.

---

Support for a two-state solution among the Palestinians is still at roughly 33%. Does that mean there is more support for two states among the GOP than among the Palestinians?

---

> Israeli masters fear and hate the Palestinians as tribal enemies

Why not also: Saudi masters fear and hate the Jews as Allah's enemies.

AIPACs $60 million is nothing compared to the Saudi money dumped on the US -- a fist full of sweaty dollars for a cheap whore. It's just that folks in the US -- for many reasons -- don't much dislike Jews or Israelis, so it's mostly wasted in terms of the I/P question. US politicians know this: What are they to do, when 75% of Americans kinda like Jews and don't regard Israel as worse than the Nazis. (Witness Bob Turner. Just wait, President Obama is already dusting off his yarmulke.)

---

To be clear, the Saudi lobby is older than the Israeli lobby. It's better funded. Unlike AIPAC, it's mostly KSA's money rather than the money of private American citizens. And there's no question that the lobby has been effective in shaping US policy since the end of WWII. Lots of my close friends are paid by their American universities with Saudi petrol dollars.

The donations to the US are just the beginning: KSA spends some $4 billion per year to spread their views of the world. Just for perspective, that's more than the USSR used to spend on propaganda and subversion in the height of the Cold War.

I say: Send more! We could use it to offset the deficit.

Meanwhile, I await the end of the easy oil in the Gulf. The US then can wash its hands of the entire Middle East (and Pakistan) and quarantine the place. It's a sewer, and I'm tired of flushing American lives and money down the drain.

confusedponderer

Please J, in the case of Germany what castrates us is guilt, and the Israelis savvily exploit it. The point is, while we know it is guilt that motivates us, we are equally aware that the Israelis are manipulating us with it. The bludgeon of being called anti-Semitic still hits particularly hard in Germany. The Israelis will continue to succeed with that approach until they overdo it.

In that sense, Netanyahu and Liebermann are the "dream team" (nightmares are dreams, too) that may finally overdo it, by doing something so egregiously offensive that not even our holocaust guilt can gloss it over. I doubt we are already willing to fully step out of the shadow of our past. It's a darn pity that it would need the Isralis to kick the Arabs around some more to change our collective, timid and guilt ridden minds.

The current Israeli gvt is certainly stupid enough to overdo it, considering their willingness to antagonise Turkey so needlessly. They could have averted a lot of mischief by simply and cheaply uttering an apology, but they were not inclined to, because of obstinate pride and self-righteous arrogance.

And I agree with Mr. Lang. The Israelis are not serious about peace with the Palestinians.

Fred

" Today, there is a chance for ... to contain Iran and prevent it from destabilizing the region. "

It seems Israel is doing a good job of destabilizing the region all by itself.

Matthew

When I read John Lamoreaux's comments, I think I found the definitive answer to the question, "Why do they hate us?"

turcopolier

All

"Lamoureux" is one of the more effective hasbara ops that I have seen, The underlying premise in his screed is that the Saudis are alien and the Jews are not. Not bad, but the flaw is that Israel does not equal Jews. pl

Farmer-don

Add Canada to the list.
Steven Harper's government is a super Israeli supporter.
This Support comes top down from Mr. Harper and some of his closest advisors in the PMO (Prime Minister's Office).
It's a matter of politics. IE. votes and contributions.

J

Mr. Lamoreaux,

You sure have a lot heartburn when it comes to the Saudis. I don't think you know the first thing about Saudis, let alone have ever had any social contacts or social dealings with them. I have found the Saudis to be a good people, warm and hospitable, and know what true friendships are. Have you ever donned local wear and disappeared into a foreign land and intermingled with its people? If you had, I think you would not be writing so harsh regarding different cultures, its religions, and its inhabitants. The Mideast is NOT a 'sewer' by any stretch. It is a plethora of wonderful, warm, hospitable inhabitants that's social ways goes back to the beginnings of the cradle of man.

When may I ask have you ever stepped foot on Mideast soil?

I for one do not want to see the place 'quarantined' as you would have it, quite to the contrary. If fellow Americans like yourself got out and saw the world and interacted with our fellow man a little more, you might find that this blue marble we reside on is chocked full of beauty and wonderful experiences and peoples. And the Saudis and the Mideast in general IMO don't deserve your derision.

Ken Hoop

Ken Hoop
Lamoreaux lists Coptic Church research as among his interests. The Egyptian Copts recently refused to agree to help Egyptian Muslims in protest against Israel. But Christians in Lebanon are now widely aligned with Lebanese Muslims against Israel.

Coptic leadership need to be scrutinized because working in manners sympathetic to Israel in Egypt could not possibly help their cause there.

I ask Lamoreaux, since the Saudis warned Bush against attacking Iraq and the Zionist Lobby pushed him in, who holds the most power?

William R. Cumming

General Ali! Thanks for the link to the article which I posted on my FACEBOOK wall with a brief comment.

MRW

Who knows where to start with your stories?

As for all your whore-cash-sweaty dollars-US dump arguments, Kissinger went hat in hand to the Saudis around 1975 to promise that we would artificially raise the price of oil and keep it there if Saudi Arabia would agree to use the surplus bucks to buy our debt (as China is doing today). . . which is the reason why Saudi bank accounts amounted to nearly 22% of all US bank deposits at the time Michael Moore reported it in Fahrenheit Whatever. Israelis don't bank it here. They take.

The rest of your screed makes the same tired jolly-jumper arguments thinking you're writing to a bunch of idiots who never read history or who can't verify your assertions online.

And oh, BTW, AIPAC spends its millions to lobby for $3 billion in cash and many more in loan guarantees it never pays back/year, then removes our taxpayer dough from this country.

There's a lot more in that Saudi threat than your cockamamie provincial reasoning. Oil is our number one national security issue. NUMBER ONE. Before all else. We can't run the military, or feed supply lines without it. Tanks, trucks, planes, and ships don't run on solar power or wind turbines. C-5s carrying troops and materiel aren't flying on algae fuel, or Darryl Hannah's geothermal.

If Saudi Arabia cuts the spigot (China would love to have it) and those national wells that Iraq still owns do the same, our $800,000/day gas habit in Afghanistan is threatened. No food and no way out for our boys. The USG doesn't even care what it does to domestic usage. (Which is why Cheney didn't.)

You are so off the mark about the effect and history of strategic policy and geopolitical need that you sound like a hyper-ventilating grandma repeating the same inaccurate gossip you heard from a neighbor 60 years ago.

turcopolier

MRW

Not sure who you are addressing. pl

turcopolier

WRC

If you think Israel is an ally, then tell me what they do for us, or ever have. pl

MRW

I was addressing John Lamoreaux. It said so above the post. This new style confused me, I think.

The comments to this entry are closed.

My Photo

February 2020

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
            1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
Blog powered by Typepad