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18 September 2011

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William R. Cumming

The historic postponement of resolution of US policy in defending its protectorate Israel against all comers is about to reveal its real costs to the USA. An overdue accounting IMO!

Norbert M Salamon

Thanks for your comments Colonel.

First, I do not think that the Palmer Commision has legal competency to rule on Gaza.

Were the USA to follow this ridiculous proposal, without doubt that would be the end of NATO - a blessing for Europe, as they have enough problems without wasting money on armaments and armies, for they do not have any enemies.

As the USA is in worse fiancial situation than Euroland [bar UK and Greece] the endo of Nato would also benefit the citizens of USA, for less military expenditure.

It is indeed sad that one of the Major USA newspapers can come out with such an anti-american opinion piece, where the USA can only loose, and Israel can not win.

confusedponderer

Re: instrument of alliance - naturally there is none. It isn't not there because the US don't want to make one. In the current political climate such a treaty would be enacted with enthusiastic and overwhelming bipartisan support, and without even the pretence of a debate.

If I am not much mistaken, US politicos have in the past actually proposed an alliance to the Israelis, but the Israelis rejected it, IMO for two reasons: (a) They already get all the benefits of an alliance, if not more, quite conveniently without any reciprocity, and (b) it would require Israel to define their borders, a matter over which they prefer to maintain ambiguity (the only explanation for which is the desire for growth).

Also, how do Israli partisans propose that Turkey is to be "sorted out" - perhaps by means of, thinking bout historical precedent, a military coup, or some other form of 'regime change'? Sanctions?

robt willmann

Here is the text of the North Atlantic Treaty establishing NATO--

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-0359A6DD-9BF3CB04/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm?

And here is the protocol on the accession of Greece and Turkey into the North Atlantic Treaty--

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-0359A6DD-9BF3CB04/natolive/official_texts_17245.htm?

Article 2 of the "protocol" admitting Turkey says, in part--

"For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: ... (2) on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over ... the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer."

NATO was founded in 1949 and had 12 members. It now has 28 members, 12 of which got in after the Berlin Wall fell and the "Cold War" was over. Israel is not among them, but Turkey is, which was the subject of the protocol in 1951 and was admitted in 1952.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-4F9C1A8C-CADF03BC/natolive/topics_52044.htm

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm

Note: Although Afghanistan is north of the Tropic of Cancer, it is definitely not in the "North Atlantic area".

(P.S. I liked the previous structure for making comments better than this one with replies to comments, but I guess TypePad got some new software.)

Green Zone Cafe

Get ready for this: "We are at war with Turkey, we have always been at war with Turkey."

http://bostonherald.com/news/opinion/editorials/view/2011_0918turkeys_provocation/

I bet a lot of those Armenian genocide resolutions start to pass in Congress and in town councils near you.

The Turks stood with us during the Cold War, hosting the old Thor and Jupiter missiles with nukes, making them a big target. The Soviets were reportedly very worried about the Turkish Army, too. Maybe it stopped them from taking Paris. I hope we remember that.

Russ Wagenfeld

Hi Pat,
I recall hearing vague references to an "Executive Agreement" between the two countries in the late 70's or early 80's. It was portrayed as defensive in nature
but I have never seen anything in writing.
Regards,
Russ

turcopolier

Rus

I don't remember that and probably would have known then. pl

Pan

We can't afford to diss the Turks too much. Just last week the Turks agreed to basing a US missile defense radar pointed at Iran. That's as close as we're going to get to Iran and be on 'friendly' NATO territory. I don't think the DoD would be very pleased at losing access to Turkish territory and airspace. We are also planning on basing Predators there once we pull out of Iraq.

Roy G.

Not surprising that the editorial doesn't mention that an American citizen was also killed in the Israeli terrorist raid, and that's exactly what it was, an attempt to terrorize those who would attempt to break the Iron Dome around the Gaza Ghetto.

Good on the Turks. The US is reduced to illogical rhetoric, that is increasingly falling on deaf ears worldwide. It reminds me of the movie 'Weekend At Bernies,' where the US and Israel are trying to prop up dead Bernie, in this case a metaphor for the Oslo accords that were killed a long time ago.

Also, note that next week is the 29th anniversary of Sabra and Shatila, something else the US media will studiously ignore, instead focusing on Michelle Bachman and Jersey Shore, anything but real news.

Neil Richardson

GZC:

The Turks also shed blood with us.

http://www.korean-war.com/turkey.html

jr786

I think it's pretty clear that the current Administration will not side with Turkey over Israel. What is less clear is how the Turkish people feel over where they should place their future. Turkey will never be part of Europe - not in the EU, at least. A Muslim state in Europe is less likely today than it was in Metternich's time.

Turkey is part of Islamicate civilization. Secular suppression of that didn't work; the ultimate reward of Europeanization will never come, and I think most Turks realize that. The natural affinity between Muslim peoples trumps prostration to the Zionist state and fosters the recent coming together of Turkey with other Muslim states.

Babak Makkinejad

That radar installation is aimed at the Russian Federation and not Iran.

Kunuri

Oh boy oh boy, one subject I do not feel intellectually dwarfed to comment about here...

Even before reading all the comments above, this whole Turkey-Israel clash is stinking of oil. Natural gas to add a little accent to complete the picture. Until recently, and maybe as of today Turkish Ministers of various portfolios have been all Gaza and Mavi Marmara, but oil exploration, coastal waters, international waters and law of the ses, and Cyprus is starting to show up in their speeches. The fog is clearing up a little and looking from this greasy end of the prism, the picture is changing.

Kunuri

The Turks stood with Americans, and all other free nations at the very first hot challange of the communist block to the free world. Even the most uneducated Turkish private in Korea knew that, and knew that if UN forces lost in Korea, Turks would be fighting on Kars-Ardahan front.
And Turks practically saved 2nd US INF Division, and maybe even the 25 th by sacrifying the whole brigade by a suicidal rear guard action. So, the history of mutual cooperation and sacrifice goes a long way back. Korean veterans would know.

Kunuri

If there is a hot clash between Turkey and Israel, and US sides with Israel, and even if there is a perception of it in the Turkish public opinion, no goverment can stand idle, but will have to close all US and NATO bases, period. Military being unwilling or not.
Then, Turkey WILL pull out of NATO, no way around it. Without Turkey, there is no southern flank so steadfastly defended by Turks 6 decades and counting. And if Russia is not watering at the mouth for such a prospect, then I bow out to anyone who can prove otherwise.

Pissed off Turks are a bad thing, US is in the driver seat here, needs supreme effort to calm things down before too late for all three parties involved, this has worlwide and very serious future implications.

Kunuri

Recently, there has been an unprecedented change in Turkish political and military balance. It is no longer possible for the military to carry out a outside induced or encouraged military coup, Army will not follow, and citizens will not stand for it. Oh, maybe assasinations, of political leaders, but the games up, will be equal to bombing Suleymaniye mosque in daylight. The only other alternative left to sort out Turkey is ouright war, which Turkey may suffer huge losses, but take it, and Israel can not, even a 10th of the damage she may inflict. I am wondering if any of the Israeli decision makers ever read anything about Gallipoli campaign of 1915. Anyway, I still think that majority of sane Israelis do not want a war with Turks, more for sentimental reasons than strategic ones.

Kunuri

Pan, plans are in the works for Turks to establis a security zone along the Iraqi border, seemingly to fend off, or finish off PKK, but the underlying rationale was that Turks would protect the Kurdish independent region from shia, and sunni of Irak once US leaves. The acceptance of Turkey of the missile shield, and the predator and sharing of increased intelligence sharing was a quid pro quo. US and Kurds of northern Iraq gives up PKK, Turkey agrees to protect free Kurds from bad guys in the south in the abscence of US.

Kunuri

I think you are referring to the second TUSLOG agreement. Turkish, US logistic support agreement, I dont have the link right now, but once I surfed the net and I found all kinds of information on it. And the best and most detailed color photographs of Istanbul in 1960, which was taken by service members on vacations, which served me as great period reference during a pre production project for a film.

Neil Richardson

"That radar installation is aimed at the Russian Federation and not Iran."

That is Russia's concern, but it's not realistic. Even after the START III reduction, Russia retains survivable second strike capability. The NATO TMD is designed for small number of potential launches namely Iran.

turcopolier

kunuri

I thoiught Russ was talking about US/Israeli relations. i lived in Izmir '70-'72. TUSLOG activities were everywhere. pl

Kunuri

Thank you for bringing this up Mr Richardson, my late father was a second liuetenant with the 1st Turkish Brigade, attached to 2nd, then to the 25 th US Inf Brigades, of patch I still have.
Turks and Americans became blood brothers at that conflict, there were no confusion between them who the real enemy was, and how to kill it. Despite an incredible language gap, very few Turks spoke English even at HQ level, but both spoke the language of war, or how to make war very well. If the saga of Korean war does not put things in perpective for the US decision makers, I will start think there is something very wrong and fear for my two countries.

Kunuri

I know Colonel, did your friend I found from your Izmir days ever contact you?
My late father, the Korean vet, thus the name Kunuri, was ADC 15 Turkish Army Corps HQ, where TUSLOG Karamursel, and a few other US bases were in their jurisdiction. Many a time we went to those bases, and as a kid, I was fascinated with the planes, US soldiers and Americana, thus my grabbing the first high school scholorship I could get and move to US and stay most of my life.
Does it worry you as much it does me, that Turkey and US may come to loggerheads as such? It pains me so even to think about.

J

The Colonel summed it up succinctly "1- Turkey is a real ally 2- Israel is not an ally at all. "

Israel is a pain-in-the-butt in more ways than one can shake a crooked hickory stick, for both our U.S. and our 'ally' Turkey. But common-sense no longer rules our D.C., undue Israeli influence does. If Tel Aviv told D.C. to take their brains out and dribble them, D.C. would comply, White House & Congress wise anyways. The only sane and rational 'adult' in the house remains DoD, whom the Israeli government fear with a passion, as DoD has peepers that can see the naked Israeli wantonness for what it truly is, ugly ugly and more ugly. That is why that the Israeli government through its tentacles has been working 24/7 non-stop to try and box-in DoD from waking up both the White House and Congress to just how stupid they have been behaving regarding the postage stamp Israel and how much damage they have been inflicting on our U.S. in the process. I'd venture to say that even our CIA and NSA have both allowed themselves to be castrated by the Israeli monster through the vis-a-vis visiting programs that the two acronyms have currently with the Mideast monster from green hell.

William R. Cumming

Turkey could well leave NATO soon. The Turks are quite expert on the Russian threat and my guess that threat little or no factor in the Turkish policy equation at the moment.

What is the Turkish/Egypt "alliance" talk all about?

Babak Makkinejad

And pray tell me why would Iran want to attack Greece? Or Turkey? Or any European state? I mean what is the motivation?

And assuming that you are correct, in fact, means that the radar installation is being prepared for the future Western-initiated war against Iran.

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