« "Sharpsburg" posted at "The Athenaeum" | Main | There is Nothing More Dangerous than a Democracy when it is Scared... »

01 September 2011

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

The Twisted Genius

The title alone says all that needs to said. Give the Libyans back their assets and let them conduct their own social experiment. They have surely paid for the right to do so. Once we reestablish our embassy in Tripoli, I hope we offer a few JCETs from 10th Group.

J

Colonel,

I whole heartedly agree, we need to let the Libyans sort out their own affairs. We have Millions of our fellow Ameicans homeless, people who use to have good paying manufacturing jobs now dumpster diving for their next meals in some of the larger cities where their once fruitful manufacturing job was outsourced to China/India/somewhere else on the planet besides our USA. We have elderly who desperately need medical care, but they can't get it from some specialist as they refuse to take Medicare as payment. Food costs are rising faster than those that do have jobs income levels, in short they are having to pinch healthy eating habits for cheaper non-nutritional filler foods a.k.a. junk food like Rahman Noodles. When was the last time you priced a can of soup, a simple can of Campbell soup. Just today I was in a Wal-Mart after dropping my wife off at the county fair, and the Wal-Mart was charging $1.44 for a two serving can of Campbell soup. You know what our forefathers did during the depression, those who had suitcases and suitcases full of worthless Wall Street stocks that once were worth millions that became more worthless than an outhouse Sears & Roebuck catalog, they mixed catsup and water and that was many a family's soup during the 1930s Depression. Almost as bad as what the Nazi Germans fed to their concentration inmates with their sawdust bread loaves.

Let the Libyans tend to their own affairs, let's concentrate ours on helping our nation get out of the mess that America's errant business and politicos have heaped on U.S.. After all we're doing it for our kids, and they don't deserve to be handed a mess and expected to live in it.

There is a breaking point for people, especially when they become desperate. And we have a growing number of fellow Americans who are becoming just that -- desperate.

Matthew

Col, you are exactly right. America is America because we created it through conflict. It was not handed to us.

BTW, I am very happy about this news. See http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/turkey-expels-israel-envoy-after-gaza-flotilla-report-freezes-military-ties-1.382181

Raising the cost of Zionism. Oh, yeah.

Norbert M Salamon

An interesting aspect of NATO/France involvement in Libya [not mentioned once in the baove discussion]:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MI03Ak01.html

Aside from the above, I agree with J's posting , and that should apply to all NATO members, who all face major financial problems due to the 2008 western financial meltdown.

Cheers

Fred

Too many of the academically educated fail to understand or respect those who are 'foreign'. Perhaps they should just come out and clearly state what they think deep down: we need to take up the 'White Man's Burden' and take run Libya for awhile. These folks need to get outside the beltway - (anywhere other than Israel, where many of them seem to have worked before)- for awhile. Maybe they'd learn something about other societies. Better yet they should watch Eric Sevareid's report from the '60's "Harvest of Shame" and then take a trip to Appalachia and see what has changed after a few de-regulated free market decades in America. Leave Libya to its people and lets take care of our own for a change.

rjj

FRED: "Leave Libya to its people and lets take care of our own for a change."

NO! NO! NO! How do you think we arrived at our present predicament? Let them offshore their visionary schemes while their speculative housing developments decompose. It shouldn't take much more than a decade.

Perhaps we define 'they' differently. Or perhaps we are referring to different sectors of the 'them.' As far as I am concerned they are all 'them.'

rjj

Never mind. Having an Argent Letter moment - A for Alienation.

Thomas

"Give the Libyans back their assets and let them conduct their own social experiment."

Seconded.

Though Viceroys R' US has a special going: run your country into the ground for only a Billon a month (not including expenses, cost overruns, etc.)

Matthew

How do you know if this is a legitimate revolution?

Answer: The new government will not permit any NATO bases in the country.

The Libyans do not need Nato to defend themselves from Algeria, Tunisia, or Egypt.

Anna-Marina

Libyans were perfectly OK without the EU and US banksters. Was Ghaddafi the really worst dictator in Africa? - No.
The NATO adventure in Libya does not pass the smell test:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/02/libya-and-the-world-we-live-in/

Patrick Lang

Anna-Marina

It does appear thanothing the USG does passes the "smell test" for you. What do you propose, that we go around the world removing all the petty and/or grand dictators everyehere/ Alternatively, that we never interfer in any country's affairs however much we dislike their practises? Practicality must pay some part in this. Libya, as TTG could explain isa remarkably easy place in which to intervene using the methods i favored. Nigeria has even more oil but would be terrbly difficult to do anythng like this in however badly it is ruled. pl

Anna-Marina

Libya used to be an independent state which did not pose any danger to the US. What was the ground for and the purpose of the intervention, however excellent were the methods?

Patrick Lang

Anne-Marina

I know you want to believe that Libya will no longer be an independent state, But, you are wrong. Iraq is an independent state, is it not? If you say no, then you are not paying attention to the news from baghdad.

Qathafi was a miserable wretch who was easy to remove. That is reason enough. pl

Twit

Anna-Marina,

How that counterpunch article spoke of the rebels was fearmongering worthy of Dick Cheney!

Is your position really that 'freedom fighters' (however you want to define them) should be remain pure and never ask or accept outside help, lest they be sullied or even enslaved by their new 'masters.'

Or is all that just pretense? Maybe what really underlies your comments is more than just reactionary Ameriphobia, but even worse the naive and perverse belief that 'power' need be bad. Power is neutral; how and for what ends one uses it has moral meaning. In this case, NATO used its power to bring about a morally good outcome.

One can (and should) always debate whether the moral good was worth the bad that comes with it, including in terms of what comes next. But this is not what you are doing.

The Twisted Genius

We are plagued with scores of editorials and analyses of the Libyan conflict that denigrate the achievements of the rebel forces and suggest that France, NATO, oil companies and others planned and carried out the removal of Qathafi for their own nefarious and/or avaricious purposes. This is absolute crap! Sure all the world's grifters and hucksters are falling over themselves to take advantage of the revolution. I only hope the rebels can fend these vultures off while they go about rebuilding their country and government. The rebels are winning their own revolution with some much appreciated outside help just as our rebels won our own revolution with equally appreciated outside help. I find it interesting that France led the outside help in both cases.

All wars are ugly affairs. There are plenty among the SST committee of correspondence that know this first hand. Even among the good guys, rough men do rough things that inevitably get the snarky critics' panties in a wad. Here are two accounts of the revolution. One describes the early days of the uprising in Benghazi and the actions of one suicide bomber. Read it and see if you still consider all suicide bombers as terrorists. The second is the account of a Tuareg mercenary that fought for Qathafi. His story is just as enlightening.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/23/libya-benghazi-gaddafi-revolution

http://feb17.info/news/former-qaddafi-mercenaries-describe-fighting-in-libyan-war-2/

Twit

TTG,

Well said, sir, as always.

I think part of it is prejudice - no way could Arabs, Muslims, or brown people actually have fought for themselves and their own beliefs and won. They must be savages, or at least pawns of the White Man.

Most of these 'analysts' are just idiots, with this being the latest showcase. Giving the rebels the credit that they earned is not glorifying war. I don't know the ugliness of war first hand, but I still understand the meaning of Lincoln's words, and also that they apply to Libyans as much as Americans:

The brave men, living and dead, who struggled [t]here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did [t]here. It is for [them] the living, rather, to be dedicated [t]here to the unfinished work which they who fought [t]here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for [them] to be..dedicated to the great task remaining before [them]—that from these honored dead [they] take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that [they] [t]here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that [their] nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Thomas

" But reporters were also quizzed by Libyans who picked up on the talk about Islamic extremists hijacking the revolution. Where, they wondered, did the idea of al-Qaeda in Libya come from? Couldn't people see what kind of revolution this is?"

TTG's Guardian article.

Where? From Policy chop shops on K street feeding their stories to journalists whom maintain their employment in return for their compliance.

Welch told Qathafi's men he represented an influential US political personality. I wonder who that could be? An old man wearing sunglasses that reflect a "fishing pole"? He wouldn't want the "rebel scum" to get their hands on certain documents from the past.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/08/2011831151258728747.html

Anna-Marina

Twit,
This is my problem with NATO using, in your words, "its power to bring about a morally good outcome:"
"The besieging of Sirte by NATO warplanes, which are dropping huge iron fragmentation bombs that will kill scores if not hundreds of innocents, mocks the justification for intervention laid out in a United Nations Security Council resolution. The U.N., when this began six months ago, authorized “all necessary measures … to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack."
by Chris Hedges,http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/libya_here_we_go_again_20110905/

Is not the US involved in the Iraq War (which has been devastating for the civilian population of Iraq and illegal by international law) for the case of “morally good outcome?”

The comments to this entry are closed.

My Photo

August 2020

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
            1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 31          
Blog powered by Typepad