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26 September 2011

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YT

mo,

"So when the talking is over and the belligerence truly begins the political positions of Egypt, turkey and syria at that point will dictate how bad it gets for both the israelis and the Palestinians. If that triumvirate becomes wedded to the Palestinian cause, and you throw in iran, Iraq and hizballah, and well, theres going to be a lot of nervousness"

I am so NOT interested in fiction becoming fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_War:_2006

Kieran Wanduragala

Third.

Medicine Man

J:

If I had to guess, I would say that the hammer lock the Israel Lobby has on public discourse in the US will loosen shortly after Israel itself embraces apartheid and/or ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. Once the cognitive dissidence between the values of the North American Jewry/New York media and the actions of the Israel government gets strong enough, the "special relationship" will crack. At that point politicians here and there will start to grow a spine.

As to when the US regains its sovereignty over MENA foreign policy, I have no idea. I get the sense that a lot of the guys who get elected into high office in the States (and in my country too) are not that unhappy with the direction Israel is going. They would just like more discretion in the public eye and more respect/deference for themselves. A sea change in public opinion followed by a few electoral blood lettings could change that though... so, lets say 15-20 years at the minimum?

YT

J,

My response to your $64 query (why only at $64, I thought it's supposed to 64 trillion?)

What was it that (rather) illustrious descendant of the 1st. Duke of Marlborough once said of your folk?

"Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities."

I see your israeli "brats" doing likewise...to their ultimate detriment.

steve

Well, I'll throw in--

Israel lost the political battle, at least on the world stage. Bibi apparently won the Israeli domestic political battle--his popularity rose.

Palestine won the political battle at the UN. Whether or not this translates into something effective domestically, who knows, but I feel he has changed the terms and the playing field of the debate. As the Colonel says it was a "deft" political move. And any move outside the peace process hoax is good news. At the very least it has shown clearly and without condition, the true nature of that process.

Stanleyhenning@mac.com

I would agree that a deafening silence surrounds the Israeli-Palatinian situation, but I also see this deafening silence pervading our entire political system. I had voted for Obama. but now see that he is essentially part of the overall meaningless political charade. I was asked to "organize" for Obama in my local area, but the following thoughts came up in my mind. I'm seriously concerned for America the Beautiful, but see it wilting on the vine. Here are some of my comments arising from my dillema:

I voted for Obama but I have noticed how useless voting for anyone in our country has become. Both parties helped take us down the road to economic failure  reflected in the sub-prime loan fiasco. The Democrats then stood by while the Republicans took us to the brink of total collapse by starting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - Iraq apparently mistakenly pushed through to protect Israel, while we continue to stumble through Afghanistan pursuing the wonderful sounding but factually flawed COIN concept. Obama did begin withdrawal from Afghanistan - but a day late and many dollars short. What we really need is leaders that have common sense and the guts to stand up and be counted even if it may mean a fall in popularity in various quarters. Likewise, we need military leaders who not only do not tolerate yes-men in the ranks, but who are not yes-men themselves. We need leaders who war-game their intended actions for probable results, not self deluding desires compounded by ignorance. I fear we are on the brink of perpetual mediocrity as a nation. What good can my "organizing" in Aiea do when all I see is mass mediocrity throughout our system.


I hope you've understood where I'm coming from. President Obama needs help. One form of help is to give him good information and allow him to stand up and refute the nonsense being spouted out. The other form is to help him fight the crap coming from within his own establishment - to help him have  the guts to stand up in spite of political drivel that will prevent him from becoming an outstanding individual who dares to hit the political nonsense being spread about. He needs to appear to be for Survival of the American dream, not a yes man for political  survival ( the equivalent of selling us down the drain for the so-called political (also read monied and Israeli) interests. he needs to come through as a reasonably self -confident and capable individual who cares about America's future beyond the self-serving monied elites and essentially un-American other interests. I write this because I care for Obama and would rather he not drop to the bottom of our small-minded politically  subservient nonpersons who have to date taken us down the road to nowhere!


You also need to talk about other serious issues. You actually have an incredible potential if you point out that it was the Republicans that brought us all into the Iraq debacle resulting in massive money wasting and
military deaths and wounded plus the massive waste in Afghanistan, including a seriously flawed COIN concept that merely added to the deaths and money wasted there. Come on - lets get serious. Of course, Democrats
could have stood up and opposed these stupid, wasteful programs, but did not. What's going on here? Are we never going to get it together, or are we so tied up in the AIPAC-pro Israeli nonsense that we cannot see the forest for
the trees? We're Americans or at least I would like to think we are. Wake up! We haven't much time left before we sink into  a second rate floundering NOTHING! I would like to think I am a Friend, but I'm not sure you want the truth. Wake up!!!!!


I was born and raised an American and I am seriously concerned about the direction we have taken in recent years. Unfortunately I have seen the party system go astray based on the apparent necessity and resulting priority to curry favor with monied interests rather than focus on the overall well being of our nation.

elkern

J:
Romanticising murder as "deadly force" doesn't help. Anyone takes that route, and it will be trumpeted in the press as proof of a resurgence of anti-semitism in the USA.

I'd say Walt & Mearshimer win your $64. The influence in government is peaking, but the "iron grip" is breaking. American Jews are discussing the problem openly (see mondoweiss.net, etc). "The Lobby" has largely lost Academia already. Obama tried to be even-handed (Cairo), but realized he can't get away with it (yet). AIPAC is so afraid that a second-term Obama might go all "Carter" on them that they've jumped in bed with the right-wing "Christians" who they think will serve Israel better (but, Revelations, well, it turns out that "...it's a cookbook!"*).


One thing most of us can do is write Letters to the Editor, rebutting whatever local propaganda you see. Readers and editors need to see the other side; they need to see that we subscribe to their paper, but not that particular slant.

But be smart, not crazy. Don't rant; don't try to pack everything bad about Israel into three paragraphs. And don't - especially you, J - sound even vaguely "anti-semetic". American Jews are not the Enemy. Hell, Israel isn't "the enemy". It's just that we've got a problem with the way money influences politics here, and SOME people who support Israel have gotten way too good at twisting that handle.

(The problem may well be worse than that, but stick to what's provable).


* And, uh, don't quote me on that "cookbook" thing, OK? It's just a good line from a Twilight Zone episode.

J

elkern,

Use of deadly force, and murder are two separates, you can go to any U.S. Military and other installations where those who are not cleared for it, had better not stray for the consequences to them could be dire, signs that say 'Use of Deadly Force Authorized', means just that, the use of life termination could be used. That's not murder. Nor is it 'romanticizing', it is what it is -- deadly force, no more no less.

There are Americans who could try to physically end the Israel lobby's grip once they reach a gut full, which could possibly run the gamut to include deadly force in the outcome, those who see the Israeli lobby as an enemy force functioning on American soil.

No where is religion paraphrased or connotated. Israel is a 'foreign nation' with 'foreign objectives', and the Israel lobby by its own actions has shown itself that it IS an 'extension' of that particular 'foreign nation's government'.

confusedponderer

Cookbook puts it well. They regard the existence of the State of Israel as an indispensable ingredient in thee recipe to their enrapturing Armageddon cocktail.

Other ingredients vary by narrative, but Israel is the only indispensable one. According to narrative, the Jews must be there for the rapture to happen. The Jews must be there so they can be killed by the bushel by the Antichrist. They call that 'love for the Jews'. As a result of their narrative, they regard Middle East peace plans as a trick - deception by the Antichrist.

As a result, they support the right wing of the Israeli political spectrum in everything they do, lest Got gets mad and sends some hurricanes. Or earthquakes. Or a drought.

IMO these people are superstitious bordering to atavism.

YT

Mr. Henning sir,

I share your sentiments & sympathize with your cause.

Though I'm not an American citizen (yet), I do empathize with the various crises & problems that beset your lot.

The U.S. of A has been a dominant actor in the int'l scene for such an extended period of time that for it to fall into decline DOES NOT necessarily imply that global dynamics will definitely work in favor for others (E.U., BRICS, etc.)

For one thing, I'd hate to see an ensuing power vacuum formed due to its influence absent.

To quote the late Col. John Boyd:

"People, ideas, hardware. In that order!"

The prime asset any Nation has is its hoi polloi.

It seems that in the rush to profit the miniscule %age of wealthy élit(ists), many gov'ts worldwide have (conveniently) ignored this simple fact, i.e. what you've called "overall well being of our nation", a.k.a. the well-being of the general populace.

My guess is some dramatic shift of social tectonics is required to alter the manners & mindset of the ruling classes.

THAT is often the worst-case scenario for any governing body: arab Spring as example not exactly bloodless.

Fall of Berlin Wall and ensuing collapse of totalitarian states (which I worry the U.S. may have a chance of becoming one) in east side of Iron Curtain a VERY rare event (Black Swan?)

Most political revolutions tend to drift (disastrously from my point-of-view) towards the French model or the October one the Russians had.

Perhaps the "honorable gents" at the "Versailles on the Potomac" are comfortable in the belief that money can buy everything, including loyalty (foreign mercenaries in the event of cataclysm nationwide?)

Ah, I seem to have risked making myself a fool for delving into what seems an alternative fiction.

Then again, fiction has on occasion morphed into the realm of the real... with the very worst result.

Thus endedth my rant.


All: I've NOT commented here in order to increase my odds in acquiring an American Visa or to curry favor with you Americans.

If you think otherwise, go FUCK yourself. Apologies for invective/profanity/expletive, Col. sir.

steve

Why does the right hate Obama?

He failed early on to create any sort of populist narrative for the collapse of the banking industry and the collapse of the economy.

He left a void that enabled the tea party crowd to have a loud and angry voice--no other group did. I say that with the knowledge that much of what the tea party stands for--unregulated free markets--in fact is status-quo packaged up as revolt.

By the time the left became aware of Obama's game--or finally dug their heads out of the sand--it was too late, the TP'ers had sucked the air out of the room.

Obama squandered an enormous amount of political capital and good will at the start of his presidency. Not that he ever wanted to, but he "coulda been a contenda".

steve

Certainly the wikileaks "Palestinian papers" showed Abbas to be an Israeli patsy.

Yet, being a patsy got him absolutely nowhere with Israel--just scorn from his own people.

Offering Israel everything it said it wanted and then being turned down imho convinced him to take his present course.

steve

As long as you are willing to vote for Obama in spite of the fact that he enacts no policies which you favor, it only ensures that Obama will pay absolutely no attention to you if re-elected.

Why should he? He's got your vote no matter what he does.

Thomas

"To Serve Man" the secret to utopia until that lady cryptologist showed professionalism, dedication and plain curiosity to reveal the scam. Always liked that episode.

Too bad cuurent government officals don't show those qulaities, though if they did they would probably be "purged".

elkern

Ponderer, you are Confused about my Cookbook reference; Thomas gets it. Check it out.

J -
Are you suggesting the US Military should/would step in to solve our political problem? That's called a coup. You're not really advocating that, are you? I don't really think so; I think you're just pissed off, like me, only less academic about it.

"Deadly Force" is also a Law Enforcement term. If the FBI catches Mossad in the act, go for it. But FBI is now part of "Homeland Security", no? FOX watching the henhouse? I've read credible accounts of FBI being pulled off the job when they get too close to the politics or the money. Now that really pisses me off.

J

elkern,

I never implied such. The term 'deadly force' is a common term referred to and applied as a norm in the real world. Deadly force is 'encompassing' whereas killing is immediate and final. I just pointed out the fact that the term deadly force is used regularly. Old habits die hard as the saying goes.

And yes I AM p.o.'d to the max about our nation being used/abused by a pipsqueak postage stamp 'furn'gvrmnt and its 'furn'gvrmnt' tentacles masquerading as American grass-roots political action committees. Their 'furn'gvrmnt' arrogance on our American soil is appalling.

The FBI bows (as in has to) to the DOJ which is all about political. There are too many 'conflicts of interest' going on both within DOJ AND State Dept. To see that just look at who is our current Ambassador to the pipsqueak postage stamp.


Anna-Marina

An excellent article on Israel’s dilemma (ethnocentrism and apartheid versus democracy) by Sari Nusseibeh: http://postonpolitics.blogspot.com/2011/10/why-israel-cant-be-jewish-state.html

“…it remains true that, in the Old Testament, God commands the Jewish state in the land of Israel to come into being through warfare and violent dispossession of the original inhabitants. Moreover, this command has its roots in the very Covenant of God with Abraham (or rather "Abram" at that time) in the Bible and it thus forms one of the core tenets of Judaism as such, at least as we understand it. No one then can blame Palestinians and descendents of the ancient Canaanites, Jebusites and others who inhabited the land before the Ancient Israelites (as seen in the Bible itself) for a little trepidation as regards what recognizing Israel as a "Jewish State" means for them, particularly to certain Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews. No one then can blame Palestinians for asking if recognizing Israel as a "Jewish State" means recognizing the legitimacy of offensive warfare or violence against them by Israel to take what remains of Palestine from them.”

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