J Ponders Upon Libya

J sent this as a comment to my last post about Libya. I think it deserves post status. I 

The following is designed to generate further discussion regarding a post-Qaddafi Libya. There are now questions being raised by 'many' regarding the war in Libya:

1. 'Why' was Qaddafi overthrown, especially when some say/allege that he worked in his people's best interests. a. 1951, Libya was the poorest nation in the world. b. Before the NATO invasion, Libyans enjoyed the highest standard of living in the entirety of Africa. A standard of living that was even ahead of Russia, Brazil, & Saudi Arabia. c. In Qaddafi Libya, homes were considered a 'human right'. d. Newly married Libyan couples received $50,000 from the Qaddafi government to buy their own home. e. Electricity under the Qaddafi government was 'free' to 'everyone'. f. Qaddafi personally vowed to house 'every' Libyan before his own parents. Qaddafi kept that promise to his people, his own father died before he was able to be housed. g. 'Before' Qaddafi, only 1/5th of Libyans were literate. Under Qaddafi, Libyan education was free and considered high quality when measured against Western education standards. The literacy rate under Qaddafi rose to 83%. h. Under Qaddafi, Libya's healthcare was free and high quality when measured against modern healthcare standards. i. If Libyans could not find the healthcare or education they needed in Libya, then the Libyan Government of Qaddafi 'funded them' to 'go abroad' and access it. j. Under Qaddafi ALL loans were 'interest free' a.k.a. 0%, this was 'by law'. k. If a Libyan went to buy a car, the Qaddafi Government paid for 50% of its price, while the Libyan paid the remaining 50%. l. In Qaddafi Libya, the price of gasoline was $0.14/gallon. m. Any Libyan wishing to become a farmer was given 'free use' of -- 1. land; 2. a home; 3. farming equipment; 4. livestock & seeds.

2. On July 1, 2011, 1.7 Million Libyans assembled in Green Square Tripoli to SHOW DEFIANCE AGAINST THE NATO BOMBING OF LIBYA. Which represented around 95% of the total population of Tripoli, which is roughly 1/3rd of the entire population of Libya. a. Under Qaddafi, the Libyan State Bank was state owned, and UNLIKE ALL of our Western banks, is not owned in some way or another by the British Crown's Financial Husbandry a.k.a. The Rothschild's Family/City of London, and all money that was issued by the Libyan bank under Qaddafi was 'debt free'.

3. Qaddafi worked to have payment for Libyan oil moved away from the U.S. Dollar to the Gold African Dinar. When this transpired, the head of France, Mr. Sarkozy then called Libya's threatened financial move a threat to the financial security of Mankind. 4. One of the NATO backed Libyan rebels' first acts was to create a new central bank which like other Western Banks are owned by the British Crown's Financial Husbandry a.k.a. The Rothschild's Family/City of London. The British Crown's Financial Husbandry the Rothschild Family is estimated to own over 1/2 of the World's wealth. It is alleged on a constant basis, that the banks owned by the Rothschilds create money out of thin air and sell it to people with interest. In other words, one never has enough money to pay back what is 'owed'. This in turn creates debt slaves of said banking interests. Can we in the West, can those whose nations comprise NATO, nations which leaders are well known names like Sarkozy, Obama, Cameron, et al. claim such accomplishments on behalf of their own people? During Qaddafi's rein, Libya was DEBT FREE. Will the subsequent post-Qaddafi Libya say the same? Now let's examine 'who' is behind the NATO bombing of a 'sovereign' DEBT FREE nation. Many say that Libyans under Qaddafi had things that citizens of the U.K., EU, and our U.S. did not enjoy, leaderships working in their citizenry's best interests versus the interests of the Banking/Corporate/Transnational Corporatism entities. Libyans shared their nation's wealth, and were not under the bondage and shackles of usury or British Crown banking interests. Imagine without their issuance of money the British Crown's Financial Husbandry couldn't control so many lives, what is now poor to average could live as wealthy people. So to the question -- does NATO and it comprising makeup, are they controlled by unethical bankers and rent-a-wreck politicians? Who was/is/are the real free person/persons, NATO/Western citizenries or Qaddafi Libyans? I doubt that many have taken the time to read Qaddafi's 'Green Book' where he believes in 'direct democracy'. Qaddafi believes that parliamentary democracies are inherently corrupt, and that people can & should represent themselves. With all this, I ask the question -- Why was Qaddafi demonized and subsequently destroyed by NATO/Western Governments? Many that were under investigation by the Anti-Corruption Investigation unit of the Qaddafi Government, are now the very same ones leading the Libyan Rebels. The draft UN report on human rights in Libya before the NATO bombings & invasion.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/16session/A-HRC-16-15.pdf Qaddafi's Green Book http://911-truth.net/other-books/Muammar-Qaddafi-Green-Book-Eng.pdf

TTG on behalf of J

Comments

[DanM]

Most the premises in the post are false or misleading:
A. Oil was discovered in '59, leading to a surge in living standards in the next decade. Qaddafi' seizes power in a coup in '69, deals a number of hammer blows to diversifying libya's economy in the coming years (at one point banning all independent retail and service jobs). Nevertheless, low population and vast oil reserves keep everyone fed. B. There was no NATO invasion. What nonsense. C. Libya has the highest standard of living in Afica still. This is because of low population and vast oil wealth. Has nothing to do with Qaddafi, and most would argue that average living standards are lower than they would have been under almost anyone else. Foreign adventures, kleptocratic behavior, hostility to private initiative and a capricious legal environment were just a few of the benefits that "brother leader" gave to his people. D. Homes, health care, education? This is all bullshit. I highly doubt J has spent much time in Libya, or studying Libya from abroad. I stopped reading at this point.

[Lars]

I think the answer is that it is a bad time to be a dictator in the Middle East. Whether this will improve the situation is yet to be seen.

[ThomasOfNY]

To echo DanM's post, it is also doubtful that the Toyota war (and the conflicts leading to it) along with the war with Egypt were in an average Libyan's best interests. There is also the aspect that perhaps life was decent, as long as you were neither a Berber or living in the east of the country. Both of which appear to have suffered from poor treatment.

[DanM]

I can't help myself: "On July 1, 2011, 1.7 Million Libyans assembled in Green Square Tripoli to SHOW DEFIANCE AGAINST THE NATO BOMBING OF LIBYA." 30% of the population of the country (or 170% of the population of Tripoli) in a 200,000 sqm (at most) square? Good lord. It could theoretically hold 800,000 (with every person packed in like a sardine). Ok. Enough.

[Fred]

Nice country name Qaddafi has: (via the wikipeadia) "In 1977 the title of the state was changed to the "Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya", and in 1986 further to "Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya"

Did anyone read the UN report:

Nice country name Qaddafi has: (via the Wikipedia) "In 1977 the title of the state was changed to the "Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya", and in 1986 further to "Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya"

Item 14: The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya believed that human rights education was a duty that should be fulfilled in the school system and the family system and by relevant civil society organizations.
Item 15:
The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya noted that laws safeguarded freedom of expression through principles enshrined in the Great Green Document. Article 5 promoted the right of expression of every person. ….

The 'responses' of the various UN member states are interesting. Just what is the UN for, full employment of those both over educated and lacking in common sense?

Who raised this 'question'? One of the NATO backed Libyan rebels' first acts was to create a new central bank which like other Western Banks are owned by the British Crown's Financial Husbandry a.k.a. The Rothschild's Family/City of London.

Are they unaware that central banks are not 'owned' by the Rothschild's?

[Will Reks]

Well, J's commentary is too conspiracy-laden for my tastes. Rothschild is like Soros and the Koch brothers. They are probably given far too much credit.

I do hope that the new Libyan government will serve the people well and not be forced to operate according to the wishes of the IMF. That has led to disaster for many countries.

[Phil Giraldi]

One thing that is irrefutable is that Christians, of which there are many in Libya, had complete freedom to practice their religion except that they could not proselytize. That might well change with the new regime.

[Medicine Man]

This seems plausible. Turning aircraft and naval artillery on unarmed crowds is a sign of regard in that part of the world. All of those ungrateful, rebellious Libyans must have been well paid but the International Banker Elite (Jewish, of course).

[Susan]

Looks like more than a million people to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bWsTlG7K60

All supporting Gaddafi.

[DanM]

Phil,

As far as I can tell Libya is max 1% Christian. In my six weeks there, didn't meet any.

It's certainly the case that post-Saddam Iraq has been terrible for that country's large and ancient Christian (and Sabean) communities.

[the Twisted Genius]

Well J, I left you here all afternoon to bear the brunt of the comments to your musings while I went to Richmond to clean up storm damage at my son's place. You seem like a centered fellow capable of taking criticism of your ideas.

As DanM pointed out, the answer to your first point is oil. Qathafi clearly did more with oil wealth for the Libyan people than a long line of Nigerian despots did for the Nigerians. Even if Qathafi was full of hope, dreams and good intentions for his fellow Libyans when he staged his bloodless coup; he became another corrupt, self-serving tyrant over the years. Like the old saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Libyan rebels did not rise up against him because they were drugged by Al Qaeda or bought off by NATO. In spite of what Qathafi's very active and effective propaganda machine churned out, life for a good part of the Libyan population sucked enough for them to put their lives and fortunes (and perhaps their sacred honor) on the line to overthrow him.

As for the July 1st million man march for Qathafi, I'm skeptical to say the least. The YouTube video provided by Susan looks fishy to me. Did any of the reporters holed up in that hotel in Tripoli report independently as to the actual size of the demonstration and the reasons the demonstrators were there? Like I said earlier, Qathafi's propaganda machine was good... and it's still churning out product.

No, Qathafi is not the devil incarnate, nor are the rebels all angels. In time perhaps the full truth will be known. In the meantime, I think there is a broad consensus across Libya that life without Qathafi was worth fighting for.

[highlander]

There J, old boy! That will teach you to challenge the conventional narrative with these bright, questioning lights.

When Q man aka "The Weird Hair Guy" made a challenge to the Dollar's reserve currancy status.....well, that was a real no,no. A veritable 5 star screw up!

Bring down the dollar, and you bring down the system. That'll get a man in real trouble, real quickly. Just ask the Q man.

[Phil Giraldi]

Thanks DanJ - I'm sure your on the ground observation of the lack of any notable Christian presence in Libya is correct, but there is a Greek Orthodox Metropolitan in Tripoli as well as a Catholic Bishop. The Greeks claim something like 60,000 adherents, which might well be a figure that is overstated for one reason or another. Don't know how many Catholics there are but they might well be the legacy of the Italian rule.

[Judy]

http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MI01Ak02.html

Very interesting read by Pepe Escobar indicating that Qathafi had some honorable ideas as suggested by J.

[Jake]

Lets stop kidding ourselves. This military action was totally political in nature and had zero to do with anything else.

As Twisted Genius states... "In time perhaps the full truth will be known."

Indeed....

[Patrick Lang]

Jake

I don't believe any of the "conspiracy" business about the UBL raid. This was really not that difficult an operation once UBL had been located.

As for the US seizing the Pakistani nuclear assets. i don't think it is possible. pl

[Babak Makkinejad]

All:

Mr. Qaddafi supported Black people of South Africa against the Whites to the jilt.

Unfortunately, that was also his finest hour.

He put in place a government structure that was not substantially different than a traditional Muslim potentate would - albeit in a tribal context.

Where are the fine governing structures that Mr Qaddafi had put in place that could function after his demise (unlike Franco, Castro, or even the Shah of Iran)?

And in what manner had he broken with 1400 years of Islamic despotism and had devolved power to others (elected councils or individuals) in an orderly manner?

And then one has to consider his erratic behavior and his antics - incuding his female body-guards, his instructions to Libyan students world-wide to go take over Libyan embassies, his attacks on US and French passenger Jetliners, etc.

I think it will be a good idea to re-read John Stuart Mill's essay "On Liberty" from time to time.

[bth]

Note how Libyan rebels used a quad rotor drone to spot Libyan forces.

http://youtu.be/DQ3hEt0EOkc

The use of aerial drones by even disorganized rebels shows how far the technology has permeated. This one was purchased from Canada.

[J]

TTG,

Well I see I have accomplished my objective -- "The following is designed to generate further discussion regarding a post-Qaddafi Libya. There are now questions being raised by 'many' regarding the war in Libya:" -- get a discussion going.

Notice I prefaced it with 'questions being raised by 'many'' caveat. Our perspective of Libya and its imbroglio is not necessarily the same as how adjoining nations to Libya, or how others through out Africa may see the situation.

DanM questioned if I had ever been to Libya recently, matter of fact Libya is one of the few places I never 'had' to go to. Other fine places took up my time and attentions, though.

What I highlighted was that in the eyes of others, Mr. Mummar was not such a bad fellow, and now thanks to NATO and other Western powers premature interjection, they now fear worse for both Libya inhabitants and those inhabiting greater Africa.

Glad that DanM had a chance to 'vacation' in Libya, hope he got a sun-tan while he was there. I frequently did in my various jaunts as a youngster.

OK, now that the dust seems to be settling a little bit, and various-n-sundry shorted knots are being unkinked, let's examine Libya, or more to the point a current and a post-Libya.

Phil,

Not since olden days have we seen such 'brotherly cooperation' and 'harmony' in the operations between CIA, MI6, and DSGE, instead of the usual behavior of a bunch of cackling hens. During the Libyan op, our beloved CIA actually schmoozed with the blokes who occupy Vauxhall Cross a.k.a. MI6, and sipped cafe on the Libyan veranda with 141 Boulevard Mortier, 20th arrondissement, Paris wonks a.k.a. DGSE for a change.

TTG,

The conversations I have had are with former IC type individuals who had been in Libya within the past 12 weeks or so. Their picture of CIA/NATO ops was not such a rosy picture as the NATO and CIA boys would like us to think it was.

Phil, Colonel, TTG,

I fear that we're going to suffer 'repercussions' as a result of the for better or worse Libya operation. Repercussions that will make us regret we set foot in the place, much akin to Iran in some ways. While the Mossad/Israeli boys may be jumping up and down with their compatriots like Mr. Cantor and others that the 'evil Mr. Qadaffi' has been routed from the scene, some of our other working partners will down the road shake their heads and wonder what-in-the-hell we thought we were doing. Daffy Duck was 69 approaching his 70s for goodness sakes, why didn't we let him expire naturally and let the subsequent following situation gobble up his sons through their own food processors, rather than artificially inject ourselves? Why? I scratch my head 'why', and 'why now'? And then it hits me -- the bankers or more to the point the British Crown's financial husbandry (of which our Wall Street is a part-n-parcel of) have their financial shorts in a knot, Don't they have a major hand in NATO through their mouthpiece Mr. Cameron, if I correctly recall.

Wil Reks,

While you may view how others less-than-stellar view of "The British Crown's financial husbandry" as a 'conspiracy', that notwithstanding others view them as just that -- a conspiracy, and depending on who is viewing it, an evil conspiracy too boot. It can be bantered about how they are or not a nefarious financial conspiracy, the fact remains that they make money on the blood/sweat/tears/toils of others, usually those who cannot afford to have such a financial leech attached to them sucking them dry. For all Qadaffi's faults, he gave some of his fellow Libyans a break (at the same time acquiring himself 20 or so luxury abodes of opulence, much akin to the estates of the banker Rothschilds).


Colonel,

I'm still just a wee bit concerned about the 're-branding' of DoD Uniformed Personnel that appears to have taken place in the Libyan milieu. And the fact that a organization (NATO) originally designed for common-'defense' is now being used in an all-too-frequent offensive (some refer to it as bully club behavior) manner. While it may not have been able to be successfully accomplished without NATO (a.k.a. U.S.) air-power, the fact remains that a 'defensive' organization developed for the common good, is now being used in an offensive and pro-active police patrol manner. I think it's time that NATO was dissolved before it becomes an even bigger monster than it already has shown itself to be.


TTG,

I had hoped to get a discussion going and it appears that I have accomplished that objective. Cheers, I'm glad I can watch the Libyan imbroglio in the cool comfort of my brand new heat-pump (while it near 110f outside in recent days) while sipping on a home-made cup of cappuccino, instead of picking the Libyan sand-fleas from my teeth and worrying about the resultant constipation that follows fine MREs/C-rats dining. I can keep my trusty little P38 in it's velvet lined shadow box on the mantle.

I think we're going to regret going into Libya, and ask ourselves what in the same-hill we were thinking, instead of letting Daffy expire in a natural fashion.

Cheers everyone.

[J]

Ya know, I have to agree with Mr. Qaddafi on one point -- a home is a human right, a right that no banker/mortage company should be able to deny any living human being. And there are 20 plus Million Americans today that are homeless thanks to the vampire bankers like the Wall Street/Rothschilds, and unscrupulous mortgage companies who have pulled their little-nooks-of-safety(a.k.a. a man's castle/home) right out from underneath them. I can agree with Mr. Qaddafi on that point 100%!

[J]

highlander,

You are soooo right, katy bar the door if one screws with the financial walls of Valhöll a.k.a. Valhalla.

[J]

TTG,

Hope your son's storm-damage isn't too bad. Sorry to hear when anyone has damage to one's abode, storm or otherwise. Our kiddos are our future, after all that's why we went through all that mud, blood, and beer for. Right?

Best to your son and his family.

[Thomas]

An interesting article on alleged help to Qathafi from some in the US.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/08/2011831151258728747.html

[ked]

"... letting Daffy expire in a natural fashion."

Revolution of one sort or another IS the natural fashion for despots - at least as natural as retirement or death from old age.

Once the US adjusts to NOT being the cause & controller of every single whirlwind in world affairs, we might get some things accomlished that are in our long-term interests.

[Fred]

J,

The Libyan's may have gotten some action by showing up at Green Square Tripoli, where would homeless American's have to wind up, Wall Street, a mega-church parking lot, Cantor's front yard? What will they get besides a snide 'get a job' remark and a trip to jail? Cantor couldn't care less nor does the Faux News audience - or many Democrats judging by the lack of backbone in the White House or the House of Representatives.