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06 July 2011

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Fred

I'm not sure I understand Mr. Lifton. He states in paragraph four that he and other members of the AJC recognized as far back as '88 that "Israel would not be able to continue as both a Jewish and a democratic state if it attempted to annex the Territories as part of the state of Israel." He further states that Israel's Prime Ministers have understood this as well; then he proceeds to lay blame on the Palestinian's for their adoption of non-violent tactics to affect a change in the conduct of Israel's government? He then concludes that the Palestinians must 'eliminate the Hamas obstacle' and Israel needs to prepare for that time - the Palestinian elimination of Hamas?

The problem - which he and his fellow AJC members recognized two decades ago - is Israel's occupation and settlements within the borders of the lands occupied by Israel in 1967. Those policies weren't created by the Palestinians, regardless of whether they support or oppose Hamas. Those are policies of the Israeli people and government. That is where Mr. Lifton needs to direct his efforts.

Roy G.

Mr. Lifton, while I recognize the sincerity of your personal viewpoint, I am finding your platitudes and one-sided partisanship to be at odds with reality; you do not see the nakhba, but instead the creation of a modern society from 'farmland' –where, pray tell, do you think that farmland came from? The million plus Russian Jews you are so proud to have 'assimilated' seem to be a large religious nationalist fifth column, as they seem to overly back the Kahanist PM Lieberman, and terrible repression of the kind Jews have historically suffered. This brings us to the final point of your myopism, where you so ardently want to save Jews from what is now being perpetrated on the Palestinians, particularly those who live in the modern day Warsaw Ghetto, aka Gaza.

Your prescriptions seem entirely fantastic, and at odds with reality, beginning with rhetorically asking Netenyahu to do something he has indicated less than zero interest in doing. Your one-sided demonization of Hamas ignores both the historical fact that Israel itself was borne of terrorist acts, many by the party now known as Likud, and unilateral declaration of statehood, not to mention fact that Zionism has its own radical problem, quite possibly much deeper; where does the 'King's Torah' stand in your view of Zionism?

Israel's probe of radical Jewish text puts rabbis in spotlight:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/07/05/117043/israels-probe-of-radical-jewish.html

Bottom line, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. The onus is on Israel to quit treating the Palestinians, and Americans, like üntermenschen.

nfl wholesale

Other Palestinian intellectual are taking another strategic tack; calling for the formation of a bi-national state encompassing Palestinians and Jews alike. They already argue that the present circumstance of Jewish control of Palestinian lives without Palestinian representation is a form of apartheid. Certainly, if there were such a bi-national state governed only by Jews, the apartheid label would fit. If it were governed by democratic vote, it would not be a Jewish state, thus ending the Zionist endeavor. This is far too high a price to pay for clinging to the concept of a “Greater Israel.”

J

Colonel,

Mr. Lifton's weak attempt to defend the indefensible would be laughable were it not that his Zionism has hurt/continues to hurt so many innocents. Lifton's feeble excuse-making of his Zionism and its actions, continue to show the underlying problem which cannot nor will it ever be solved by the hands of corrupted Zionism and its acolytes like Mr. Lifton. The late Rav Yolesh expounded in detail just how flawed Herzl and his Zionism were, and how Zionism and its current Zionist State of Israel because of their continued unabashed presumptuousness are a slap in the face of the Creator Of Life, an anathema to everything the Creator Of Life stands for.

Rav Yolesh was correct, the Zionist State of Israel (Mr. Lifton's Zionist State) needs to be disassembled and left to the Divine Hand to create. Something that Mr. Lifton I fear will never even begin to comprehend.

YT

Has anyone ever considered movin' the Palestinians to arab lands instead of 'em squabblin' over this small stretch of land with the israelis?

jordan, kuwait, or even saudi?

Patrick Lang

YT

I presume that you are joking. What do you propose, forced re-settlement? Jordan has many citizens fo Palestinian ancestry. All Palestinians who fled to Jordan were given citizenship. arabs are not all the same. Lebanon, Egypt, etc. are not all just "arab lands." Palestinians want to live in their homelands. pl

YT

Col. sir,

Well, IMHO 'em places (i.e. arab real estate) have space aplenty. Surely they could afford 'em Palestinians a place of their own?

Better re-settlement than this hopeless intifada that's been costin' israelis & Palestinians the blood of their citizenry as well as the flower of their youth.

PirateLaddie

YT -- excellent suggestion! Why should European Jewry be inconvenienced and deprived of the lands they acquired by gelt, guile, conquest and terror? Better the people of the land be compelled to 'move on, move on' to free up more living space for the Volk.

Matthew

Col: I would invert YT's offer: Since the 500,000 Israelis already have foreign passports, why don't the Zionists move?

Florida is nice. If God allegedly rewards those who bless Abraham, then America will get His award. (Please note this comment is directed to the Evangelicals among us, not my fellow RC's.)

William R. Cumming

The USA should never support theocracies in its foreign policy or foreign relations.

The State Department should be required to compile an annual list of nation-states that are theocracies and that don't believe in the first amendment of the Constitution.

LeaNder

"I believe in the indispensability of a Jewish state as an ultimate haven and representative of the Jewish people whose long history of pogroms, mistreatment as second class citizens, mass expulsions, and the extreme horror of the Holocaust demonstrates a need for a state of their own."

"I believe", the Holocaust is a trauma that is with us to stay. But I also believe, it's victims shouldn't be misused for some collective advantage over a different "other" Zionism produced.

Do you honestly expect that diaspora Jews all over the world will at one point loose their equal rights again? That is, that history will turn back and it all starts all over again?

Now it's simply the Muslim against Jews on their ways to their respective theocracies? With the Muslims adhering to the same old antisemtic irrational creed, based on no real grievances?

How comes the precursors of Hamas were secular: the PLO, while the scenario was pretty similar?

The Zionists like the European extreme right (the counter-revolutionaries at the time) embraced the idea of a Jewish people, versus a group with shared religion. I find it interesting that "race" surfaces quite often among self-declared Zionist liberals. What does this mean?

To what extend was Zionism water on the mills of the European extreme right's (counter-revolutionary) mindset? Would the Protocols have worked in the early 20th century without the Balfour declaration to point out? But I realize I have to know much more about the larger context than I already know. What it feels though, is that Zionists had no interest in fighting antisemitism, after all they offered their own solution to the "Jewish problem".

How should we deal with the many inherent paradoxes, like demanding equal rights everywhere but not being prepared to offer it to the state's non-Jewish citizen? Or to put it slightly sarcastic, could there be an interest to carefully preserve antisemitism and record antisemitism (e.g. ADL polls), instead of carefully analysing it, if it is the main reason for the Jewish and Democratic State?

Anna-Marina

We cannot expect from the tribalists a non-tribal, fair judgment. Whereas it sounds so touching that Israel welcomes Soviet Jews to the land that does not entirely belong to Israel, there is a blinding light of information on not-so-human behavior of Russian Jewry during Socialist Revolution in Russia, and on the savage cruelty of KGB-empowered Jewish security officers against non-Jews. Just publishing the data on the role of Russian Jews in Russian Revolution and their participation in KGB activities made Solzhenitsyn a persona non grata for many publishing houses in Europe and the US. The history of new Israel has proved that it is absolutely senseless to demonize some ethnic groups for the expense of others. The beautiful Germany produced both greatest humanists and greatest criminals. The same is true for Israel.

Charles I

Rkl seems to me to posit peace in lieu of the impracticalities of implementing the whole messhuggah program, rather than any inherent or latent problem with the ends of the scheme per se.
If only there were fewer of them. Palestinians, impracticalities, whichever, the difference is is not clear to me but put that aside one moment. Then a one state final solution could be acceptably practical, one might conclude.

He credits Bibi with peaceful aspirations, too inscrutable for me to divine from his conduct, including the flapping of gums and the passage of hot air thereover. Bibi must only craft a plan acceptable to Israel, while the Palestinians must "improve their strategic position further" by implementing this, the Israelis promise/demand, one last internal "by-pass". After all, the organ in question has been created, hunted, warred upon, sanctioned, blockaded and the patient remains intransigently ill advised.

We're only trying to help and this'll work, cross my heart.

It did seem held out that were said organ only to promise to stop hating the Dr. never mind the treatment, and acknowledge his/her right to inflict such treatment in lieu of informed consent, peace would be at hand.

Asking the Palestinians to "bypass" Hamas, makes for a delightfully Freudian metaphor if one considers the topography of the Occupied Territories and Gaza. After all, the Israeli's have literally bypassed the settlements, physically, politically, morally.

Quite a Roadmap he is asking the Palestinians to live up to as a prerequisite to any deal.

Could have had peace decades ago before that "recognizes the tension between expansionist nationalism and Zionism" if only Hamas had not arisen in the first place, hmm?

Brent Wiggans

Whatever our anger at Israel for its current policies, Zionism is a perfectly understandable response to a history of exile, persecution and injustice in a world that allowed Jews no acceptable choices. Assimilation has proven untrustworthy as a lasting guarantee of even minimal safety. If Zionism is unfair it is the product of a people who experienced little but unfairness in their own treatment for centuries.

It is highly inconvenient for the world to have Israel continue to be so stubbornly harsh and unreasonable in its treatment of the people it displaced from the land it now occupies. We identify this behavior as an essential obstacle to a just and lasting settlement there and we question whether we should continue to support it by supporting Israel itself. In our outrage and frustration at Israel’s behavior we ought to remember – not so much as the moral imperative we are relentlessly reminded of, but as a practical reality - that it is shaped by millennia of the experience of being Jews in a world that has had no place for them. Their experience of Western Civilization is ultimately one of alienation, rejection and betrayal by allegedly enlightened societies. The world did that to them and they have responded. If you regard Israel as some kind of monster it is in a very real sense of our own creation. Now, as surely as we must learn to accept and deal with Iraqis and Iranians and all the other cultures we have finally taken notice of and yet know so little about, we must learn to deal wisely and shrewdly with Israel, alien and alienated, and the diaspora that it now anchors. Should we expect Israel to respond to its present predicament as would a Western European state such as Britain or France? But, come to think of it, maybe that is precisely what it has done.

Patrick Lang

BW

"Assimilation has proven untrustworthy as a lasting guarantee of even minimal safety"

Yes. That is true and may prove to be equally true here if some catastrophe occurs in which they are blamed. pl

Matthew

Shorter BW: It really is inconvenient for the Israelis that the Palestinians haven't disappeared.

And what of this piffle: " Now, as surely as we must learn to accept and deal with Iraqis and Iranians and all the other cultures we have finally taken notice of and yet know so little about, we must learn to deal wisely and shrewdly with Israel, alien and alienated, and the diaspora that it now anchors."

We don't need to be "wise" with them. We need to cut them off.

Roy G.

Brent Wiggans, I highly disagree with your logic, if not at least, because Zionism is not historically a monolithic entity; for example, Uri Avnery considers himself to be a Zionist, yet he is a far cry from A Lieberman, Netenyanu and their ilk. Perhaps you ought to consider the difference between the two bipolar kinds of Jews, and why you are granting a free pass to the latter, when clearly many Jews do not believe that historical wrongs do not make it right to persecute the Palestinians, steal their land, and subject them to apartheid.

Finally, by what right does 'Western civilization' have to give away Palestine as part of its penance which the Palestinians never played a part in?

Brent Wiggans

Col. Lang,

"Yes. That is true and may prove to be equally true here if some catastrophe occurs in which they are blamed."

That is a frightening thought in every possible way, but given the fear, anger and hatred presently being fomented in America, I suppose it could.

Charles I

BW, granting all you say, securing the State of Israel to be whatever its citizens decide, how long do we tolerate the unjust captivity of the Palestinians and further unreasonable armed colonization of Palestine as a means of comprehending/recompensing/inviting in/dealing with historically abused Jews, now equipped with a State, WMD, $ Patron & Veto, to be whatever they wish, wherever, assimilated or not?

Until the Wall is complete, the Palestinian export economy completely reduced? The several millennium current land claims and subsequent injustices stem from? Until they attack Iran? Never?

Forever if they'd only join the NPT, a club no doubt dying to have them?

Whatever its response to existence and exclusion, Western or Eastern in nature, in return(hey a wee pun!) there's wise and shrewd, and then there's bend over, step aside, look away, nothing to see here. . .

Cal

"Assimilation has proven untrustworthy as a lasting guarantee of even minimal safety."

Well, the problem is the professional zionist haven't assimilated have they?

Mr Lipton for instance says he is a zionist with total support for Israel yet he doesn't live there does he? No, he lives in the US while supporting Israel and claiming that Jews aren't safe any where but Israel.

I can only imagine how deluded I would have to be, or what my motives would have to be, to live in a house where I am certain my host might turn on me and assassinate me any day, when I could move move to house called Israel that I believed to be safe from all my fear of others.

As usual I don't buy the convoluted zionist reasoning or excuses. I also don't buy that the actions/attitudes of the zionist themselves aren't equally responsible for others dislike/resentment of them.


elkern

YT -

Your attempt at folksy American English does not ring true (usage of "'em" is unnatural). What's your native language & dialect?

Your fake concern for the "flower" of Palestinian youth is even worse. "Resettlement" = "lebensraum". Never again?

Propagandist. Bad one, to boot. Does it pay well?

But once again, I've bitten taken the troll-bait.

J

This is interesting:

EDL Officially Announce Ties To Zionist State of Israel
http://wideshut.co.uk/edl-officially-announce-ties-to-zionist-state-of-israel/

-- "Not only does the Israel Lobby exert influence over the mainstream parties, with groups like the Labour Friends of Israel, Conservative Friends of Israel, Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel, and The Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM), but ironically our nationalist thugs are now also officially tied to Israel. Some nationalists they are!

Perhaps the EDL are fascist after all. Not fascist in the sense of nationalism, but fascist in the sense of globalism." --

mo

BW,
Exile? Does anyone really still believe this myth? The only place the Romans "exiled" Jewish people from was Jerusalem (a law ironically not lifted until the arrival of the Arabs).

And your "justification" for the state of Israel is "their experience of Western Civilization" - Well done on the disparate thinking. Western civilization committed crimes against the Jewish people and yet you argue that it is not Western civilization that should pay the price? And further still, the price is to be paid by Western Civilization committing more of the old crimes on a new set of people? See any hypocrisy in your argument at all?

And one final question. The next time someone brings up Palestinian terrorism or the question of Hamas you are ok if I quote you by responding
"Their experience of Western Civilization is ultimately one of alienation, rejection and betrayal by allegedly enlightened societies. The world did that to them and they have responded"

You wouldn't mind would you?

Cal

What the zionist should reflect on...

Principiis obsta and Finem respice—

‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.

Jackie

Roy G: Exactly!!! I have never understood why the Palestinians had to pay a price for what was done by the Germans.

Oh, that's right, Balfour and the British Mandate. It wasn't thiers to give away either.

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