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18 July 2011

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optimax

Richard Sale

You have not "worn out your welcome" with me. Your essays are always thought provoking.

Just having reread John Stuart Mill's "Liberty of Thought and Discussion," I am even more impressed with your arguments. You show, by taking dissenting opinions head on, the importance of differing opinions in clarifying thought. One of JSM's central points is that those who censor dissentiousness place their ideas, therefore themselves, in a position of being infallible, resulting in the atrophy of moral beliefs.

LOTAD should be required reading for our politicians who have made the nation ungovernable by the intractability of their ideas. The number of pledges Bachmann and other presidential candidates have signed , in my opinion, makes them unfit for any public office.

ked

Yeah, it is a commonplace to conflate religion & power - but it is a flawed (even false) approach to the matter. Religion is typically an institutionalized expression of meaning & power dynamics in a culture (& not the only one wherein humans express meaning & power).

"Religion" doesn't get a pass for its role in warfare just because it is one of numerous channels for expressing human will - au contraire, the style of the religious component to warmaking is quite revealing... & often quite central. Yet religion is not (simplistically) the sole source of the urge to engage in war. One might argue religion has (had?) differential influence in the West because Christianity supplanted other religions by conquest - at first via the soul, then the mind, then by arms.

Dialectic analysis is a nifty tool, but don't confuse the tool with the work.

Jose L campos

The first Tribunal of Inquisition was established in France in 1229. It eradicated the Cathars. Episcopal inquisitve tribunals had been established in France in the xii century, there was Roman inquisition and a Venetian one and a Portuguese one. There was one in Spain also.

Lars

In one aspect, Mr. Sale is right on the money. Once in my native Sweden, Gustaf Wasa used confiscation of Catholic church properties to hire the mercenaries who helped him consolidate political power. His grandson would then fight on the Protestant side in the 30 Year War and in the process loot much of the remaining Catholic areas in northern Europe.

Much that can still be found in museums in Stockholm.

walrus

Walrus

It is my misfortune not to have the eloquence or learning to build great rhetorical structures such as Mr. Sales elegant creation.

Instead I must rely on what little learning and experience I possess. Some of that experience, sadly was the result of a death in the family, exposing me by chance to the work of Sir Isiah Berlin - a brilliant scholar of the history of ideas, starting with his magisterial collection of essays on the history of ideas; "Against The Current".

I had the misfortune to start by reading the First essay - "The Counter Enlightenment" which chronicles the reaction of Mr. Sales intellectual forbears against the: "Proclamation of the Autonomy of reason and the methods of the natural sciences" as Isiah Berlin put it. It was depressing to read. Still more depressing to remember after studying a little European history and the truths revealed in its architecture. Depressing yet again when one sees the same tired arguments trotted out in 2011.

In this and subsequent essays, we learn that Mr. Sales arguments are not new, nor original. There is no point in me supplying copious footnotes. The counter enlightenment continues, and Mr Sale is one of its foot soldiers. This is obvious by his reaction to my categorizing current conflicts in the middle east, and elsewhere, as grubby little geopolitical power plays, and not the soaring, transcendental conflicts of glittering systems of ideas that Mr. Sale would have us believe.

The behavior of Jewish settlers in occupied territories is despicable. As is the behavior of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Trying to dress either activity up with high moral purpose is like putting lipstick on a pig. Period.

In answer to Mr. Sale's observations about the differences between the bloodiness and cruelties of Stalin, Hitler and religious wars, I say there is no difference. Stalin and Hitler both operated on principles of revealed truth that had no basis in fact. Stalin dissembled that the failures of Marxism must be due to enemy action "reactionaries" since pure Marxism was infallible. Religions likewise proclaim infallibility and demonise the holders of opposing views as Bakunin observed. Hitler of course didn't even apply a coherent system of reason at all, which is why as Robert Paxton observed, Fascism doesn't export like Marxism did.

The fact that various peoples worshiped in the past is irrelevant to today. It is a simple response to failing to explain the unexplainable - Volcanic eruptions, crop failures, eclipses and personal tragedy - invoke the great spaghetti monster. Is it also any wonder that the minute after the aforesaid irrational belief system has taken hold that its practitioners would identify with the ruling class? Why do you think Sarah Palin alternately wears a Star of David and a Crucifix?

"Luthers mission was to eradicate Catholicism"

???????

"The corrupt indulgence industry of Leo X was used to pay for many magnificent buildings and startling, wondrous works of art in Rome, including some which, to this day, represent the imperishable glories of our civilization. "

??

"Burkhardt, echoing historian R.L. Woltmann, asserts that Luther was driven by an implacable determination not to simply bring about the reform of the Church but to bring about “the complete demotion and eradication of everything old.”"

?? Shades of Giambattista Vico. He tried that line as well.

"I am in no way ignoring the revolution caused in the Printing Press as part of this upheaval. The eloquence of Erasmus, More, PIco della Mirandola and other Renaissance authors, had gained them thousand of readers. And there is no doubt that there existed a growing, gnawing impatience among thoughtful Christians who viewed the doctrines, the hierarchy, and Church traditions as standing in the way of the individual’s direct acquaintance with the Faith."

Lets face it, the Catholic Church missed the bus when the printing press was invented. (quoted in Cranes biography of Mercator P 147)

As for "Gnawing impatience" of the laity to read the bible and commentaries in the vernacular; the punishment of Two old ladies for doing so in the Netherlands in 1543 was execution by being buried alive. (Mercator P149)

To put it another way: The Catholic Church held the keys to the kingdom of heaven and they didn't let go without a long bloody cruel, unchristian, fight; and if they could reimpose their power over Western humanity tomorrow they would be right back to their old ways (if in fact they ever changed to newer ways, I note that the Church is not a democracy.).

As for the "eloquence" of Thomas More, and the measured response to the reformation of the Catholioc Church; I think it speaks for itself:

"Come, do not rage so violently, good father; but if you have raved wildly enough, listen now, you pimp. You recall that you falsely complained above that the king has shown no passage in your whole book, even as an example, in which he said that you contradict yourself. You told this lie shortly before, although the king has demonstrated to you many examples of your inconsistency ....

But meanwhile, for as long as your reverend paternity will be determined to tell these shameless lies, others will be permitted, on behalf of his English majesty, to throw back into your paternity's shitty mouth, truly the shit-pool of all shit, all the muck and shit which your damnable rottenness has vomited up, and to empty out all the sewers and privies onto your crown divested of the dignity of the priestly crown, against which no less than against the kingly crown you have determined to play the buffoon.

In your sense of fairness, honest reader, you will forgive me that the utterly filthy words of this scoundrel have forced me to answer such things, for which I should have begged your leave. Now I consider truer than truth that saying: 'He who touches pitch will be wholly defiled by it' (Sirach 13:1). For I am ashamed even of this necessity, that while I clean out the fellow's shit-filled mouth I see my own fingers covered with shit.

--Sir Thomas More, Responsio ad Lutherum"


Yes, these are weighty matters, and they are best dealt with via secular humanism, not invocation sof the flying spaghetti monster, no matter in what guise: Christian, Islamic, Jewish, etc.

walrus

..and thank you to Col. Lang for providing this opportunity.

LeaNder

Thanks Richard Sale, I liked your first article a lot, it was brilliantly written, but this is very, very powerful.

What your critic attacked was ultimately not religion which conserves thousands-of-years-old human wisdom, instead he should have attacked fallible man. But men were as fallible than, as they are now.

But ultimately the winners (the powerful) will die just as the losers (the weak).

***************************
Jose L campos, the Cathars were on my mind too, and the Waldensians. But you have always this outward struggle against the diverse others/heretics and an inward reform struggle, e.g. the Cistercians versus powerful Cluny. The problem was that the combination of Ora et labora automatically produced wealth, maybe mainly by the lay brothers but not only. But there were also mendicant orders the Franciscans e.g.


optimax

Mill was not seeking synthesis but condemning censorship. Truths without opposition become fat, lazy dogmas people accept without knowing why. He did think erroneous opinion could contain kernels of truth that could modify accepted beliefs, but even if they didn't, debate still strengthened truth.

Fred

I don't think the butchers, bakers, masons or any of the peasants who helped build Saint Michel de la Mer Del Peril or Chartres or any of the other churches of Middle Ages were too concerned with the opinions of the bishops or popes - but certainly they found inspiration for their souls that energized their entire civilization. Those symbols, the entire structures themselves, spoke to Man. It seems now that the religious symbols of our civilization - the Star of David, the Cross, the Cresent, or even the sickle & hammer; have been replaced - by the $ sign. I wonder what the symbol for Renminbi is?

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