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03 July 2011

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William RAISER

I too would like to know why the government of the US does not support international law and the values of the country.

The Flotilla will be in international waters and the waters of Gaza, at no time in Israeli waters. The previous Flotilla was attacked in international waters.

Where is our support for those who fight peacefully against the illegal occupation and blockade of Gaza?

PirateLaddie

Great, Col. Thanks for running this. I sent a copy to Perry's office & to numerous "patriots" (a dangerous term, these days)around the state. Now if we can only keep this Zionist tool from moving his ball towards the GOP nomination.... One Texan in the White House per generation is about all we can hope to survive.

blue jay

If I had been asked how the survivors of the liberty tragedy might have represented their interests, I would have focused on what The USS Navy did and/or did not do with respect to this matter. The fact that the Navy did not do the bare minimum makes me suspect they had something major to hide. Why did you folks not have the services of private investigators? I think your loyalty to The US Navy clouded your vision and allowed the navy to get off the hook.Why did you let them off the hook? (Colonel Lang you really should recluse yourself from this issue as you have a questionable gray area conflict of interest.)
You survivors became too distracted with your understandable hatred for Israel and missed the boat on the possibility it may have been largely incompetence on our part too. That is what I suspect is the culprit, gross incompetence by both governments, but probably not premeditated murders of Americans by Israeli Elite Fighter Pilots. The Israeli Air Force would not have been involved in such an affair, they would have revolted. Don't forget most of them at that time were well educated peace now leaning leftist idealogues. The original american flag the Liberty was flying was too small to identify from the planes altitude, we tested that one out ourselves even. No, does not add up. They had other things on their mind, unfortunately.
Why, may I ask did the navy refuse to honor the Israelis request for real time information on us ship locations. Israel was our ally after all.
I would have gone after the navy with such ferocity that they would have no choice but to protect themselves by identifying appropriate parties to blame other than themselves. They probably demanded Israel follow a certain course of action on the response and investigation in order to prevent the survivors from suing their employer.
Joe, I think it is an error to take part in this poorly conceived floatilla. It has nothing to do with The USS Liberty and it makes you look, I'm sorry, like a human shield for the terrorists/nut. Gaza is receiving all the humanitarian aid it needs. The Israelis are trying to prevent contraband being brought in and they are being supported by The US, Turkey, Greece etc. It's a loser for you and your fellow survivors. You will see I am right but only I'm afraid after it is too late, for you.
BTW, Happy Holiday. Let the gaza thing go Joe.

Patrick Lang

bluejay

"Colonel Lang you really should recluse yourself from this issue as you have a questionable gray area conflict of interest"

I have no idea what you are talking about. Please respond. I would like to know what you have in the file on me over there. You can check the details in the CV posted here on SST under the category of CVs. Then there is always the wiki on me. Please don't vandalize it any more than has occurred. This is an inconvenience for the people who change it back after it has been mutilated.

BTW. The word is "recuse."

I see that you too live just NE of Wichita. That is in Kansas. It is interesting that so many of you folks who are so "enraptured" by Israel live in the Wichita area. pl

Fred

Blue Jay:

"Gaza is receiving all the humanitarian aid it needs."

Do you have an official statement from the government in Gaza? I doubt you do since neither Israel or the US recognize Hamas? Perhaps there's some other government that says the 1,700,000 people there have 'all the humanitarian' aid they need. Do you have a reference to the 'approved' list, or at least approved by Israel - since the blockade is not okay with the government of Gaza/Palestine/whatever you want to call this place (not to mention a violation of international law)?

Hopefully Mexico won't try to stop the guns coming across their border the same way, though God knows plenty of Mexicans are being killed by them. I can imagine the howling on WallStreet when all those maquiladora's stop shipping those duty free (thanks to NAFTA) goods up North.

LeaNder

"You survivors became too distracted with your understandable hatred for Israel and missed the boat on"

symptomatic: I had a really strong impulse to stop reading at that point.

"understandable hatred", is rather interesting in this context. There is always a gray area where the anti-Semite meets the anti-anti-Semite. The Janus face moment.

The ethnic pride always gives the game away. At the core we have: on one side Peace Now Israeli Elite Fighter pilots, on the other a corrupt US Navy, with our dear Colonel implicated ... Not elite enough, maybe? Blue Jay? No web link?

The only part where both sides meet is in the field of the minor annoyance of incompetence; entailing the paradox of a botched-elite-job on one of the two sides. Balance is all.

I miss the html-tags, Colonel, what idiot made you disallow them?

confusedponderer

Blue Jay,
"The Israeli Air Force would not have been involved in such an affair, they would have revolted." In direct response to that assertion - apparently they squirmed before they acted as ordered.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/printedition/tuesday/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,1050179.story?page=6&coll=chi_business_ugc

"One set of transcripts apparently survived in the archives of the U.S. Army's intelligence school, then located at Ft. Holabird in Maryland.

W. Patrick Lang, a retired Army colonel who spent eight years as chief of Middle East intelligence for the Defense Intelligence Agency, said the transcripts were used as "course material" in an advanced class for intelligence officers on the clandestine interception of voice transmissions.

"The flight leader spoke to his base to report that he had the ship in view, that it was the same ship that he had been briefed on and that it was clearly marked with the U.S. flag," Lang recalled in an e-mail.

"The flight commander was reluctant," Lang said in a subsequent interview. "That was very clear. He didn't want to do this. He asked them a couple of times, 'Do you really want me to do this?' I've remembered it ever since. It was very striking. I've been harboring this memory for all these years."

Apparently that doesn't read anything like you preferred it to read. Well, it can't be helped.

LeaNder

concerning the Gaza flotilla. It's a real pity that not all boats of the flotilla followed the US lead simply carrying letters from US (Australian, British, French, German, Greece, Irish, Italian, Swizz, ...) citizen. It feels that Jerry/Charles has something similar on his mind:

http://www.jeremiahhaber.com/2011/07/advice-for-next-gaza-flotilla.html

Advise for the next flotilla.

Charles I

bluejay, a functioning free economy requires EXPORTS, not the export of bullshit justifications for "allowing" Gaza to "receive all it needs". Lets try that at your house, see how it fits.

Secondly, who asked you? Mr Meadors is prima facie a more legitimate promoter the interests and memory of the Liberty survivors.

He evenhandedly calls for prosecution of "those who machine gunned our life rafts in the water or ordered us to be abandoned while we were under fire?

You don't mention the dead, the murdered.

Further, "the authorities screwed up, forget the shooter" logic means every time a dinky little rocket lands on Israel, we should be howling at Israel for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and for not flying a big enough Star of David. Its all Bibi & the IDF's fault.

Point taken.

w/rt/

"The Israeli Air Force would not have been involved in such an affair, they would have revolted. Don't forget most of them at that time were well educated peace now leaning leftist idealogues. The original american(sic) flag the Liberty was flying was too small to identify from the planes altitude, we tested that one out ourselves even. No, does not add up. They had other things on their mind, unfortunately."

1. Who flies those assassination helicopters in the Occupied Territories?

2. Who flew Cast Lead?

Who is "we" as in "we tested. . ."

Who or what are you? Why not add the weight of authority to your argument?

I admit right now I have none, so yours could be of critical import in getting to the bottom of the crimes and coverup.

Do tell.

William R. Cumming

The premise of the ICC [International Criminal Court]
is that the perpertrators of crimes against humanity cannot be successfully brought to justice in their respective nation state. One day the leaders of Israel will rue their actions against innocents when justice is done. Of course those who attack innocents in Israel also seem headed to their day in ICC also.
Were there not some signatories to renunciation of war as an instrument of nation-state policy in the 20's? Kellog-Briand Pact?

Why not a formal declaration by UN that individuals not acting on behalf of a nation-state are also subject to ICC jurisdiction when attacking innocents in the name of religion or ideology?

Patrick Lang

LeaNder

How am I "implicated?" pl

LeaNder

How am I "implicated?" pl

Well, that wasn't the best choice of words. ... But then, "you should recluse yourself", sounds peculiar too. He seems to suggest you are entangled or have an interest in whitewashing US Navy guilt at the expense of poor Israel. That's not even close to what I learned from you.

"bj: (Colonel Lang you really should recluse yourself from this issue as you have a questionable gray area conflict of interest.)"

Was he thinking of the story confusedponderer reports above? Why would you have a "gray area of conflict of interest"? What exactly is he suggesting here?

This is interesting too:
"I would have gone after the navy with such ferocity that they would have no choice but to protect themselves by identifying appropriate parties to blame other than themselves."

He does in fact ask for a more elaborate cover up, doesn't he? Why is it this type has always a strong authoritarian strain?


Patrick Lang

LeaNder

Yes. I, and a number of other people with appropriate status, saw the transcribed intercepts. I have said so a number of times. pl

euclidcreek

Thank you for printing Bluejay's comment on this Fourth of July. His attempt to explain Israel's BS as reasonable and judicious, while amusing, strikes me as, well, lame. Try again.

confusedponderer

Apropos ... happy Fourth of July to everyone 'over there'.

Ron

This is not the only time that Texas has issued a proclamation in honor of the USS Liberty. Myself and Dr. Rex Repass worked very hard to get Ann Richards to sign a proclamation. She did so, and so the proclamation that Joe has is not the only one.

RLKirtley

One would think That blue jay would realize the reaction of those who read this blog to his comment.He wasted his time and ours...A happy 4th to everyone and to the United States.

"Mad" Mike Adams

Is the Blue Jay a subspecies of the Hasbara Hawk?

LeaNder

"people with appropriate status"

Pat, I was aware I shouldn't have written that passage, since it's a very private irritation with a specific type of earlier Hasbara on Mondoweiss.

But something about the comment felt so manipulative, it really drove me nuts. ... And yes, it reminds me of someone.

Roy G.

Looking at the blue jay that dropped in, we are seeing a bit more sophistication in hasbara, probably from the level that he himself received it; a 'friend' who is passing along some friendly advice, who wants us to know the 'truth,' and how we should be mad at the other guy, and Joe should just 'let it go.' Such sage advice!

Then, the mask slips, and a bunch of clumsy, easily refutable lies are slipped in, as if to 'prove' the point. I don't know which was more ludicrous, that Gaza gets all the humanitarian supplies it needs, and that Israel is only stopping 'contraband,' or the hilarious slippage that Turkey is supporting the blockade! Is 'Greece, etc.' supposed to be new coalition of the willing? Please let us know who 'etc' is, sounds like a winning team!

optimax

blue jay,

Israel was not, and is not, our ally. We were neutral in the '67 war. Saying we are allies is propaganda. Repeating a lie over and over does not make it true but implants the idea in the brains of the less discerning than those at SST.

Elad Reznik

Guys, i am totally amazed reading the comments.
Most of you are dealing with everything but facts.
Before i'll begin i will say out loud i am an Israeli with some connection to the Air Force, and though i was born after 1967 i know one of the pilots who participated in the attack.

To the facts:

1. The USS Liberty was ordered to increase the distance from shore (Egypt and Israel) to a 100 NM.
2. The order was never executed.
3. US 6 Fleet command did not inform Israel or Egypt about the whereabouts of the USS liberty (War Zone, in time of War)
4. I have no idea how many of you tried to identify a ship's flag while flying at 450 kts. it is not that easy.
5. If you conclude all the above, obviously that was a very unfortunate incident of misidentifying the boat.

Fred

Elad,

The USS Liberty could not be identified as a US vessel because:

a) it was in international waters but not 100NM from Israel? - Therefore this justifies an unprovoked attack?

b) an alleged order from US 6th fleet to the ship was not carried out? How's that affect the eyesight and silhouette recognition capabilities of IDFAF pilots?

c) The USN didn't tell Israel where US Naval vessels were sailing in international waters - therefore Israel is justified in attacking the USS Liberty?

d) You can't see a flag at 450 kts - so the highly trained pilots had no idea what ship it was but decided to shoot first, shoot repeatedly, and then figure out who's ship it was later?

How about all those torpedo boats, surely they weren't doing 450 kts? Perhaps the fires, smoke and life-rafts in the water blocked their view?

How about those life rafts? No flag, strafing's no problem? What does that say about the moral values of your armed forces?

Since you are Israeli how did you obtain the official orders from US 6th fleet to USS Liberty? Radio intercepts, in which case certainly the IDF knew where the USS Liberty was? How about the standards of pilot training on silhouette recognition for possible naval targets? and more tellingly - that strafing of life-rafts was an acceptable act? (Is shooting life rafts still acceptable to IDF AF pilots?)

confusedponderer

Roy G.
contraband is a broad term. Basically, contraband is everything Israel defines as such.

Israel allowed shoes into Gaza the first time in years some time back. Because shoes are 'dual use products' since ... Hamas people ... wear shoes? By that standard, what isn't? Bread is a dual use product because Hamas people ... do eat? Israel blocked the delivery of pasta to Gaza. Or coriander.

The criteria for what is contraband and what isn't appear arbitrary: Israel allowed into Gaza canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit. Israel allowed into Gaza mineral water, but not fruit juice. Israel allowed into Gaza sesame paste (tahini) but not jam. Israel allows the Palestinians tea and coffee, but not chocolate ...

It's not about safety but about making life in Gaza as difficult and miserable as possible. It's a siege. As Dov Weissglas put it in 2006: "We need to make the Palestinians lose weight, but not to starve to death." Not much changed since then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/06/gaza-palestinian-territories

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/02/25/62797/israel-blocks-pasta-shipment-to.html

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/why-won-t-israel-allow-gazans-to-import-coriander-1.288824

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8654337.stm

Charles I

Elad, now you, the hasbara and Israel are not just misidentifying the boat, you are missing it entirely.

Until you can provide us with sources for your assertions 1-3,, obviously I cannot conclude all the above at all.

I do conclude, from your admission and published reports to date, that Israel has a long-established proclivity for attacking unidentified non-combatants or other extraterritorial worthies on land sea and air, and when caught out, making up a story, cravenly apologizing for the "mistake", then blaming the victims for that mistake with an aplomb now transiting the psychotically delusional.

When a drone strike goes off, at least there's an apology, no blaming of the wedding party mistakenly blasted to bits, and the bold assertion that the guy we were shooting at, whose ID we knew, was there, as best we knew.

I don't agree with it, but its not utter tripe.

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