We have a new guest author on SST. "Itai" is an Israeli of whom I know nothing other than that he writes to me. His first post appears below. pl
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If there is an independent State ever created in the west bank, it will not be a Palestinian state it will be a Muslim State. First, because the so-called Palestinians do not want such a state. They always said no. And secondly, because the Palestinians themselves make clear, from PLO to Hamas, it will be a Muslim state.
The are no unknown with respect to Hamas, which as part of the Muslim Brotherhood, seeks an Islamic Caliphate. Hamas charter does not mention a Palestinian state. As it relates to the PLO, the agreed upon constitution of the future Palestinian state, states things clearly.
Article 2 states that “The Palestinian people are part of the Arab and Islamic nations. Arab unity is a goal. ". Article 5 states: " Islam is the official religion in Palestine.." And Article 7 also makes it clear: " The principles of the Islamic sharia are a main source for legislation”. This constitution was formulated by a serious team of lawyers, from the West and the Arab world, headed by Nabil Shaath, A Member of the PLO not Hamas. (“http://www.pcpsr.org/domestic/2003/nbrowne.pdf”)
The proposed constitution does not stop the Palestinians, like other propagandists from the Arab world, the West and Israel, to recite the mantra that there is no such thing as a Jewish state and a Jewish state is necessarily a racist state. "
Not True!!! Apart from Lebanon, The constitutions of all Arab states, includes a uniform section, usually the second section, that “Islam is the state religion.” Nobody told them to change the definition of self. Western countries also tie between national and religious identities.
For example, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Britain, Greece, Australia, Switzerland and others, displays the Christian cross as part of their flags. No one questions their choice. The Palestinians are doing the same tying between church and state. All Arab countries do the same. But that fact will not stop Saeb Erekat, a member of the PLO moderate stream, to say time and time again that “No country in the world ties national identity with religious identity”
Based on that background, one should re-examine the periodic hype about creating a Palestinian state. The Palestinians of course agree to create their own state, as long as they don’t have to accept the notion of “Two States for Two People”, Even the Saudi Initiative which was adopted and later became the Arab Initiative, does not recognize the UN partition plan. The initiative mentions only section 194, which is about the right of return. Two States indeed, but none of them in accordance with resolution 181 which grants the right of the Jewish people and confirms the term “Jewish State” 29 times.
Here is the relevant article of the Saudi initiative: “Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.” (http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm)
Some in Israel think that the Saudi Initiative is an acceptable point to start negotiations from, In My opinion Palestinian realization that the Right of Return can’t be implemented, in accordance with finding a just solution based on the principle of “Two States for Two People”, is the first step towards finding a solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
The ROR and the Two State for Two People will be the pivot point for this peace process, a Palestinian announcement that they denounce the ROR and recognize Israel as a Jewish Democratic state, means they accept and seek the end of conflict. Palestinian demand that ROR will be implemented will mean, to most Israelis, they actively seek the destruction of the state of Israel and its transformation to supra national / bi-national state. For Israeli’s that would be the end of negotiations.
We need to hear from the Palestinians, in Arabic, in front of the entire world that they accept the Two State for Two People principle. So far they didn’t, and lately it seems that they chose a different path and will try to bend Israel’s arm with a unilateral move of seeking statehood at the United Nations General Assembly, Hoping that through world support they would be able to avoid committing to the only thing that can bring a just solution to our 120 years of conflict. Itai
How would Islam as the religion of a Palestinian state be different from Judaism as the religion of Israel?
Posted by: Margaret Steinfels | 08 July 2011 at 12:30 PM
Could you please explain your usage of the quotation mark? (yes, I had this problem before)
Concerning flags: Do countries that have no graphic symbols reminiscent of the cross in their flags feel more reliable? Like e.g. Germany?
Why should the Palestinians trust you, if you don't trust them?
Will it be the last loop the Palestinians have to jump through, to recognize the Jewish and Democratic State? What exactly would it mean for its non-Jewish citizen, if they did? Since this demand is without precedent, what are its exact juridical implications?
Will there be further loops, e.g. they have to agree to forget their history? Never talk about or commemorate special events like the Nabka?
Posted by: LeaNder | 08 July 2011 at 01:52 PM
If it's a muslim state, so what? They're independent people, they know how to rule themselves. If they decide to worship a teapot, that's their problem, you can laugh from the sidelines but they certainly don't have to listen to you on how they should govern,pray or like/hate. MYOB.
The conversation is always better off when you stop Occupying the Territories first and then talk. Since Israel has NEVER been a honourable partner in peace or a proper member of world nations, it's best that it mends its ways before preaching what the other party should do.
Here's a hint, you don't get to choose which parts of the UN Laws you'd follow, others should follow and the ones to ignore. You are already in violation, fix your side of it and then the world bodies will help in brokering a possibly just arrangement so that you can keep parts of stolen land.
Posted by: shanks | 08 July 2011 at 02:02 PM
The only thing you need to hear from the Palestinians in any language is: "Stop stealing our land, and take your racist settler-trash back to Netanya."
The days of Zionists lecturing anyone about anything are over. It is either freedom for Palestine or complete de-legitimization of the Zionist Entity.
Posted by: Matthew | 08 July 2011 at 02:13 PM
Hasbara like this convinces no one who will ultimately determine the fate of the conflict. But I fear it may convince enough in the US (the caliphate nonsense is targeted mostly at us) and Israel to enable delay delay delay to a point at which a reasonable compromise that saves Israel is impossible. A starting point for negotiations "should be giving up the right of return." No serious person who knows anything about the conflict could write this (if writing in good faith). Erekat, Abu Mazen et al would be dragged through the streets and hung from the highest rafter if they gave it up for nothing -- nothing -- in return.
Posted by: DanM | 08 July 2011 at 02:25 PM
Right after World War II, did you all neglect to look at a map of the Eastern Mediterranean?
Posted by: Bart | 08 July 2011 at 02:59 PM
Margaret,
Here's something you might find enlightening and interesting reading.
see:
http://jewsnotzionists.org/opposed.html
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WHY IS WORLD JEWRY OPPOSED TO THE ZIONIST STATE
1) What is "The people of Israel" ?
-The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
-It has its own particular, essential, nature.
-The Torah is the source of its essential nature.
-Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.
-Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.
-The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.
-Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
2) What is Zionism ?
-Zionism is a new thing.
-It has only existed for a century.
-Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character.
- a materialistic worldly nation.
-Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.
-Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
- This is clearly speed out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, That through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation." -- a state and an army.
3) The People of Israel Oppose This For 4 Reasons
FIRST - Because this is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the people of Israel, as it explained above. Because the only time that the people of Israel where permitted to have a state were two thousand years ago when the Glory of the Creator was upon us. And likewise in the future when the Glory of the Creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him. Then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service.
However, a wordily state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substituted another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation." And the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize land and army.
However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. And this is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather, it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.
SECOND - Because of all of this and other reasons Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed be He, in His Glory and Essence redeems us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah. Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as it explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. And the Holy One, blessed be He, has warned us that if we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.
THIRD - Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel, is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel are required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the Congregation of Israel.
FOURTH - Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah, they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power, from fulfilling the commands of the Torah. They do this both with force and with trickery. Their claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight will all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.
4) The Zionists claim that they are the savers of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things.
FIRST - If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel as in the period of the Zionists. And it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.
SECOND - It is openly stated in the books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did. They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and then helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See books Perfidy, Min Ha Meitsor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today, they incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given by leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d Forbid). Weitzman said, The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant (May we be spared).
THIRD - We see that most of the world Jewry, lives in security under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist state. Whereas many people have left the Zionist state to live under better conditions in other lands.
FOURTH - The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate too their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.
FIFTH - Because nobody wants the Zionists to "Save them". The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits. And even then very few people respond.
SIXTH - The Zionist state is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry lives in peace and security. (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)
SEVENTH - The Zionist state could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist state.
EIGHTH - The Zionist state is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.
NINTH - The Zionist state persecutes all Jews who are loyal to their faith.
TENTH - They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.
ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.
TWELFTH - Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah. And the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost. It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.
5. Even though there are observant Jews and Rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.
- The people of Israel has existed for thousands of years.
- It has its own particular, essential, nature.
- The Torah is the source of its essential nature.
- Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.
- Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.
- The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.
- Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
- They make it look like all Jewry and their Rabbis are
Zionists, but this is false propaganda.
- The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious
Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American News media.
- The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against
them.
- That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.
- Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.
6) We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.
1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. And in every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.
2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.
3) The founders of Zionism where all atheists who denied the Torah. And all the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.
However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their faith. They are the strongest of the strong. Because of their strength the Creator gives them. Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure. Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force. With fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator. Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist state will cease to exist.
4) It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because the entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that Name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.
5) Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. And the truth will always remain the truth. By no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one are three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.
6) Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that state is a complete falsification. The people of Israel have nothing to do with the state. Zionism and its state have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.
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Posted by: J | 08 July 2011 at 03:47 PM
"...it seems that they chose a different path and will try to bend Israel’s arm with a unilateral move of seeking statehood at the United Nations General Assembly,..."
It seems that they are following the Israeli example of declaring a state and not asking for permission from those who are opposed to such an idea. However, it does appear that Israel is not even living up to their own Declaration of the State of Israel:
"...THE STATE OF ISRAEL ... it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. …"
The settlements aren't open to all inhabitations of Israel, there is plenty of discrimination based on religion and the part about faithful to the principles of the Charter of the UN….?
Posted by: Fred | 08 July 2011 at 04:49 PM
Dan M,
it's funny that you mention Abu-Mazen.
Abu-Mazen was the one that together with Dr. Yossi Beilin composed a draft for a peace agreement back in 1995.
this is what they agreed upon about the ROR
"Whereas the Palestinian side considers that the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes is enshrined in international law and natural justice, it recognizes that the prerequisites of the new era of peace and coexistence, as well as the realities that have been created on the ground since 1948, have rendered the implementation of this right impracticable. The Palestinian side, thus, declares its readiness to accept and implement policies and measures that will ensure, insofar as this is possible, the welfare and well-being of these refugees"
Same Abu-Mazen who denounce that ROR in 1995, is demanding it now.
Posted by: Elad Reznik | 08 July 2011 at 05:19 PM
Itai is obfuscating the real issues. First of all, he is misrepresenting national and diplomatic recognition: Yes, many states do have a religious character, however, that is a national identity issue, and has nothing to do with diplomatic recognition between states. If he were honest, he would admit that this particular demand only surfaced recently.
Second, whether or not Palestine wants to characterize itself as an Arab state is a red herring, because pan-Arabism has forever been more wishful thinking than anything else. This charge is merely the pot calling the kettle black, because he is trying to damn Palestine for doing what Israel has already done. His commentary along these lines is an attempt at fearmongering, and carries an odor of colonial paternalism.
Also duly noted is his reference to the 'so-called' Palestinians. Why are you so intent upon delegitimizing the Palestinians, Itai?
Thirdly, notice the spurious reference to the Right of Return, which has already been agreed upon by the PA as a non-demand. Why is it that the PA has to 'denounce' it?
Finally, notice how these preconditions are given by Itai as necessary in order to 'start' negotiations; this is a clear attempt at pretending that Oslo never existed, and along with it, the agreements made there by the Israeli government at the time.
Sorry, Itai, Israel has dragged its feet long enough, and your hasbara doesn't work outside of your own magic bubble. The Palestine Papers proved that Israel is not willing to accept any offer, and only seeks to continue to take land and push the Palestinians further into apartheid. You had your chance for an equitable one-state solution, but you blew it Big Time. It's now time for Palestine to do what Israel did in its own day, and unilaterally declare statehood.
Posted by: Roy G. | 08 July 2011 at 05:25 PM
The author Itai's premise is pure bogus crap. If the Palestinians say we recognize Israel as a Jewish state they would not gain one inch of territory. Netanyahu's coalition has no intention of entering into ANY peace agreement with the Palestinians except if they agree to live in autonomous city statelets with Israel grabbing the rest of Judea and Samaria and the Jordan Valley.
Every year I spend a number of months in Israel( retirement has it's advantages) and have been spending time in Israel annually since 1956. This past year I have listened to talks given by Danny Danon, Benny Begin, Danny Ayalon and others outlining what the inner cabinet of 7 is willing to give up. I've heard them describe the plan to slowly absorb the territories they want over the next 20-25 years when it will be complete. Visit the Jordan Valley and can see how they are driving the indigenous bedouins out of their villages and grazing land. Take a look at the construction in the Ariel corridor which is linking up Ariel to Eli and Shilo and the Jordan Valley cutting off the northern West Bank totally. Get it through your head - as long as this coalition is in power they will be unwilling to make ANY meaningful peace.
Now on to the issue of religion and state. Having a cross on your flag is not the same as calling yourself a Christian nation in the same manner as Israel wants to be a Jewish nation. I'm sure you are aware that Palestinian Israelis are considered second class citizens in the same fashion as Blacks were in Jim Crow south. I'm also sure you are aware that everyday Israel moves closer to a complete segregation of Jews and arabs. The problems in Safed and the Galilee are just the tip of the iceberg. If I were an arab Palestinian living in either Israel or the occupied territories there is NO WAY IN HELL I would agree to Israel being a Jewish State. It will just give Israel the green light to make Israeli arabs 3rd or 4th class citizens.
I have spent a LOT of time talking with Palestinians, mainly at Al Quds University and with relatives of my sister's Palestinian nanny and handyman in Haifa, who live in East Jerusalem and Hebron. I've also spent a few visits with Saeb Erakat. Believe me Palestinians KNOW there will be no major right of return. It is the one major negotiating chit they have and they are not about to give it up until the end. Erakat himself has said IN ARABIC to audiences I have been at that the ROR will be limited to a face saving token number. Olmert discussed the number 30,000 and Abbas wanted to try for 100,000. Either way this is NOT going to upset Israel's demographics.
I say all of this as a Zionist Jew, who has Israeli citizenship with an Irgun grandfather.
Posted by: jdledell | 08 July 2011 at 07:13 PM
Sadly Itai is yet another of the Israeli political and ideological shock troops devoted to what has become the Judeo-fascist cause of dispossessing, suppressing and dehumanizing the Palestinians. Yes, Deputy Prome Minister and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is a fascist in the purest sense of the term. So are other members of Netanyahu's government. He himself advances policies, and makes abusive statements that serve the same end - whatever a psychoanalyst would conclude in regard to his personality dynmaics.
My advice is to ignore Mr. Itai and his ilk. Instead, read Uri Avnery every Saturday who dissects their mentality, their doings and their personalities with restrained yet withering precision. He has continued his column despite his wife's death.
Their campaign aims to make 'Muslim" and 'Islam' dirty words. Too many here mindlessly react to those names as if that were the case.
Before Mr. Itai et al declare me a self-hating Jew, be assured that my contempt for them is inspired by a full appreciation of the great humanistic tradition that they disgrace and besmirch daily by behavior that is anathema to its princples and precepts.
Posted by: mbrenner | 08 July 2011 at 09:16 PM
Palestine would be an Islamic state? What happened to all of the Palestinian Christians?
Posted by: Cameron | 08 July 2011 at 10:13 PM
Jdledell, I just wanted to say 'thanks' again for your continued efforts - you really 'walk the walk,' as they say, in more ways than one.
Posted by: Roy G. | 08 July 2011 at 10:32 PM
Why does big money always go to the Fundie Section, be it Christian, Jewish or Muslim? Governments that don't seperate the two are mafia-type organizations and the Judea-Christians are succeeding in America. Bring back the Deists for the love of "Nature's God."
Posted by: optimax | 09 July 2011 at 12:33 AM
IS DAVID BRENNER A LUNATIC?
..Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is a fascist in the purest sense of the term...
Name calling is juvenile, Brenner. If you have an issue, bring out the facts so they can be discussed.
How specifically has Lieberman proven he is a fascist. Open it for rebuttal, if you have any guts, which I have reason to doubt.Is it possible you are projecting? (Speaking of psychoanalysis, have you ever been diagnosed as psychotic?)
My advice is to ignore Mr. Itai and his ilk.
Why I thought Lang deserved credit for bringing other articulate, informed perspectives in. Seemed an objective analysis to me, from an informed Israeli, one of many out there that have received no air play here. Lang did not endorse it, it does add balance. No one here took much time to understand what he was trying to communicate at all.
Lang gets credit, whether he concurs with the author or not, it's different from Lifton, it is refreshing.
You want people to read Avinary. He is one of you. Who is narrow minded here.
This is proof, if anyone is a fascist here, Brenner...
Sadly Itai is yet another of the Israeli political and ideological shock troops devoted to what has become the Judeo-fascist cause of dispossessing, suppressing and dehumanizing the Palestinians.
How do you figure that based upon his points, you do not discuss his points Brenner, you are a professor,I pity your students who dare not disagree with you.
If you are referring to Israel's highly successful efforts to suppress murderous attacks on Israeli civilians, I have news for you,the entire world appreciates Israeli counter terror activities and humanistic endeavors, which you pointedly ignore, because their techniques are being used world wide to protect and rescue innocent civilians from terrorists. Oh excuse me, I guess I just de-humanized your poor Palestinians, who want their state to not allow one Jewish person, maybe they would make an exception in your case Brenner. You deserve each other.
Posted by: used to post here | 09 July 2011 at 05:48 AM
One person, One vote.
For everyone between river and sea.
Then hash out the rest of the details on the floor of the Knesset.
Posted by: Ael | 09 July 2011 at 05:49 AM
Itay,
the most surprising element in the larger debate for me is the rigid control of the majority of the Israeli people by only a few basic memes.
I have to admit, it is rather painful to watch.
http://www.jeremiahhaber.com/
Posted by: LeaNder | 09 July 2011 at 08:28 AM
LeaNder
Bob Lifton told me once that you can not understand the Jews without understanding the depth of their fear. I believe that is so. pl
Posted by: Patrick Lang | 09 July 2011 at 08:37 AM
All
I want to have real forum here for rational discourse. I appeal to you all to abstain from name calling, personal attacks and unnecessarily foul language.
As someone pointed out, I do not endorse Itai's views neither do I condemn him. pl
Posted by: Patrick Lang | 09 July 2011 at 08:41 AM
"...the entire world appreciates Israeli counter terror activities and humanistic endeavors,..."
The counter terror activities of the Israeli government have not ended terror activities since the political situation that drives those 'terror activities' hasn't changed in decades. As to humanistic endeavors? Which ones would those be?
Posted by: Fred | 09 July 2011 at 08:48 AM
The sad thing is, whether one agrees or disagrees with Itai's viewpoint/thinking pattern, innocents continue to be killed on both sides of the fence.
If the words of the late Rav Yolesh were listened to and enacted upon, we would not be having this sad discussion in this current time frame.
We as mankind bring so much unnecessary needless suffering upon ourselves, such a pity when we as a species have been given such a beautiful world in which to live.
Colonel, I agree with you regarding some of the statements of those who 'talk tough' about taking life, in particular those individuals who (thankfully) have never had to, they bother me as well.
Why does an Israeli resident of Hebron think it is 'tough' to kick a elderly Palestinian grandmother like she was a dog? Such sad actions are a frequent occurrence, the Zionist state is dehumanizing itself in the process.
Does a state have the right to exist, that intentionally with malice and forethought set out to dehumanize another? What specifically give it a right to exist?
Posted by: J | 09 July 2011 at 09:27 AM
Dr. Brenner, David Bromwhich's article on Obama may interest you:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/jul/14/obama-his-words-his-deeds/?page=1
Besides, I don't think the term fits you, only in a very wide political usage. I realized that you are slightly ironic.
The term self-hatred in fact makes much sense, if you look at the portraits of Theodore Lessing, who coined the term. Unfortunately it is not translated. But I think Gilman L. Sander deals with Lessing's study. He does in fact, you can search his book here:
http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Self-Hatred-Anti-Semitism-Hidden-Language/dp/0801840635/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310217566&sr=8-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Lessing
As I have to admit that I met people on the web, that it feels would fit the term. But no, I don't mean e.g. Norman Finkelstein ... although I think he is traumatized by the fate of his parents.
The confusing hyper-inflation of the term as a demagogic tool has to do with the fact that it is often simply used for self-criticism, and that makes no sense at all. But that doesn't mean anti-Semitism doesn't have the power to create self-hating Jews.
Posted by: LeaNder | 09 July 2011 at 09:35 AM
Pat, I find it strange that Michael Brenner is attacked here so often and so viciously, at least it feels so to me. This is not the first time.
This feels very contradictory:
"My advice is to ignore Mr. Itai and his ilk."
versus:
"it's different from Lifton, it is refreshing""
What is it? He should be ignored or he is refreshing? Could he explain?
why is Avnery "one of you" but narrow minded.
If the whole world adopts the Israeli way to deal with the Arabs/terrorists would that be his vision?
Whom would he hate among his own?
Could he add his own vision to the ones suggested, and stop attacking selective members of the Sic Semper Tyrannis community?
Posted by: LeaNder | 09 July 2011 at 10:02 AM
I think that the author misses the point.
The Palestinian state will be a conservative status quo state and will not be a revolutionary state. That is, unlike the United States or the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Palestinian state will not be pursuing a revolutionary agenda either in the Levant or in the Persian Gulf.
Thus, the Palestinian state will not be a threat to Israel.
Posted by: Babak Makkinejad | 09 July 2011 at 10:28 AM