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22 June 2011

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William R. Cumming

So there is NO cause and effect? No excuse or no reason based on either the Holocaust
or Israel for Islamic rage at the WEST? Help me understand!

Why so little impact of the PAGAN (Greek) philosophes on ISLAM? What threatens human existence more--faith or reason?

If the WEST becomes Christendom will Jews survive?
Why do none of these WESTERN religions denounce violence?

FB Ali

Babak Makkinejad may genuinely think that the cult of the Shoah directly confronts and demeans the religion of Islam, and the conflict is 'one inspired by religious sentiment on all sides.' It is possible that there may be religious elements in Iran who think the same way. However, I greatly doubt that this is true for the vast majority of Muslims.

For the bulk of Muslims everywhere the Palestine issue is one of Israelis uprooting Palestinians (most, but not all, of whom are Muslims) from their ancestral lands and taking it over. And, later, establishing an oppressive rule over them, in which they have been attacked, killed, and brutalized. Why this hurts Muslims is not because of religion per se, but because of the deeply ingrained feeling of all Muslims everywhere of being part of one people, the ‘ummah’.

I would suggest that painting this as a ‘clash of religions’ issue is a red herring, and seriously misleading.

Patrick Lang

WRC

Jews survived when it WAS "Christendom."

Classical Islam WAS heavily influenced in its first two centuries by Hellenistic philosophy, but in the time of the Caliph al-mutawakkil, the struggle between something like rationalism in religion and pietism rooted nearly exclusively in scripture was decided in favor of the pietists. This dominance has existed ever since in Sunni Islam. A somewhat different situation has existed in Shiism and among the Ibadhis but i leave that to someone else to explain or to denounce my explanation. pl

Matthew

David Habakkuk & F.B. Ali:

As someone with a partial dog in the I-P conflict (my wife has family living in Palestine), I think the tone of the debate matters. And the USG is tone death.

Every Israeli sensitivity is addressed solemnly. Every Palestinian demand is met with annoyance.

Please recall that Condi Rice browbeat the Palestinians to accept the Road Map "as is," but offered not a batsqueak of protest when the Israelis filed 14 reservations.

The insult I can handle. The stupidity of making it unintentially, I cannot.

Roy G

Excellent analysis, Mr. Habbakuk. The shoah seems to be a schismatic event for the Jews, with one side moving towards humanity, and the other intent on dominance. It seems the latter want all Jews to be considered one bloc, and that bloc must be loyal to the Zionist State of Israel. There have been many instances of Jews, Holocaust survivors as well, being pilloried in the worst ways for daring to question the actions of the Zionists. This will be put further to the test very soon, as many Jewish Americans will be on the relief flotilla heading to Gaza.

While the story of Islamic salafism has gotten much play, the same virulent strain of extremism has been busy breeding within the Jewish population as well.

Patrick Lang

Roy G

I am probably wrong but I thought that Teddy Kollek was an example of what was really needed. I told him that. Perhaps I am a fool and there would have been nothing but a mocking and cynical response from the Palestinians pl

LeaNder

"It is hardly surprising that Zionists have made political use of the sense among Gentiles that some element of generalised guilt for the Shoah ought to be born not only by those in the Christian West who were involved in it, facilitated it, or failed to try to stop it – but by Christian civilisation as a whole."

Civilisation as a whole:
I've been looking into theology and theologians during the Nazi reign, their weak attempts to resist the Nazi takeover--Gleichschaltung--of the churches ... their post Holocaust theology.

In this context I read a very interesting article by Katharina von Kellenbach:
http://faculty.smcm.edu/kvonkellenbach/

She must have had a chance to look at archival matters in the States, I'd love to take a closer look at too. Prominent German theologians implored the US authorities not to persecute the "poor Germans" to strongly, set them go free ... They added to their already already rather long letter, with many biblical citations, hundreds of petitions. they couldn't check them each, of course, they added.

I can imagine a closer check would have taken time, or been difficult, evidence might have been destroyed, sometimes deliberately or missing for other reasons... and yes the obvious chaos all around.

Although the Americans initially seemed to deal well with punishing the guilty, initially, far better than e.g. the French, their mission was successful.

The main point von Kellenbach makes--and it is very inspiring--if the guilty are not punished, than the people have to bear the guilt collectively. Not that I haven't had these thoughts before but she puts it really simply.

***************************
"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

Yes, that's at the core of "my Holocaust religion". To put it very cynically: the misuse of the victims for the collective advantage. It wouldn't work without a nationalist ideology.

That's why the simplistic merging of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is very, very dangerous. I don't think one has to be a member of the ‘ummah’ to understand that. It's enough to be simply human.

Patrick Lang

LeaNder

We americans did not kill the Jews. We accepted them... pl

Roy G

Col. Lang, I would tend to agree with you, but it seems like he would never have been allowed to do as he wished.

J

One cannot mention Shoa and not mention Nakba in the same breath (if they have any ounce of humanity in them), useless murder is just that -- useless cold-blooded murder. The events that lead to the Shoa was -- useless cold-blooded murder. Today the Palestinian Nakba is being perpetrated by the surviving progeny of the Shoa, which makes the Heavens weep. Modern day Zionist Israel has become the 21 Century's WWII cruelty hold-over.

The late Rav Yolesh was right, Zionist Israel needs to be dismantled and left to the Divine Hand to create. Cold-blooded senseless murder cannot be justified.

Lysander

Speaking for myself, there is a certain annoyance among Muslims in how the Holocaust is discussed. Here we have a crime that occurred in Europe, committed by Europeans, against Europeans. And yet, to read the news today, one would get the impression that Iran is the guilty party. Angela Merkel especially misses no opportunity to transfer German guilt elsewhere.

Also, the argumentum ad Hitlerum thing is growing old. Over the last 60 years, Nasser was Hitler, then Sadat, then Arafat, then Saddam, now Ahmadinejad. By now I've grown quite jaded, and I bet I'm not alone.

It may seem cruel or callous to say this, but it's high time the Muslim world spoke with one loud voice and said that the Holocaust is Europe's burden to bear. They may say to themselves, it was a horrible example of inhumanity, but we are now moving on. Or they may continue to obsess about it. But either way, leave the Muslim world out of it. We have our own burdens to bear.

Cal

Someone help me out here.

I am an American gentile and feel absolutely no guilt regarding the Jews
history or the holocaust.
Nor do I see that "the world' in general was somehow responsible for Hitler's holocaust.

What happened to the Jews was deplorable, but so was 20 million Russian civilians dying in WWII.

I would also say that the now third generation of Germans don't need to keep paying for the sins of a prior generation.

Really, it's past time to put an end to this myth and meme of the world being eternally responsible for the condition of Jews or that the world owns them because they were on the losing side of the constant and various tribal and societal and religious competitions all tribes and groups were involved in throughout history.

It's nonsense. Time to put it to bed.

Cal

I would suggest that painting this as a ‘clash of religions’ issue is a red herring, and seriously misleading.

Posted by: FB Ali | 22 June 2011 at 04:00 PM
>>>>>>

Of course it is. Judaism has next to nothing to do with the Zionist cult of Israel.

William R. Cumming

Thanks PL!

LeaNder

sorry, for the bad proofreading.

Pat, I know. What I wrote wasn't about the Americans, what I wrote was about the Germans and their foreign helpers. ... But you won't deny that without Hitler and the Nazis there wouldn't be Israel today. Would you? German demands may have met with US cold war plans. Just as the Russian arch enemy provided a basis for continuity in Germany. I do not need to repeat that Germans are indebted to Americans, do I? But that was rather controversial in post-war Germany.

I am pondering about the ultimate future scenario my favorite "Hasbara",

http://mondoweiss.net/profile/richard-witty

once suggested, pointing to the breakup of the USSR and it's zone of influence: the future lies in ethnic states. Welcome to a: Brave "New" World. He didn't explain to us, how this could work in the US, were he lives, or over here in Europe . ... Or should the split up only occur in the region, to create a more level playing field? And why shouldn't that have the same result as European rivalry over the centuries? How exactly is the pan-Islam-threat-scenario, something that frequently surfaces in his comments, dialectically related to the "new Arab antisemitism"?

Others from his camp point to "Jewish DNA" that proves "the Jews" are a people with the right to self-govern. Another curious idea. My rights, it feels, to self-govern end, were other's rights start.

I am deeply puzzled, it may not be about governing the world, but the DNA part of the larger puzzle feels ideologically similar to good old racism.

Fred

WRC said:

"Why so little impact of the PAGAN (Greek) philosophes on ISLAM? What threatens human existence more--faith or reason? "

WRC, don't forget what happened to the pagan temples - remnants of religiions that had been serving humanity for thousands of years. Why couldn't (early) Christians get along with believers of those other religions, with whom they had co-existed for almost 400 years?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria#Decree_of_Theodosius.2C_destruction_of_the_Serapeum_in_391

Anna-Marina

It seems that US government became the Israel-firsters best refuge.
“Issuing a rare maritime warning this week to American vessels traveling near Gaza, Washington has effectively distanced itself from offering protection to its citizens if they are attacked by Israel on the open sea.”

In other words, for the US government Israeli lives are more precious than American lives.

http://www.thenation.com/article/161633/gaza-aid-flotilla

turcopolier

richard,etc.

"the Roman Church was built on hijacking a Jewish prophet, then covering its butt by putting the blame for his death on his own people." Why the Roman Church rather than christians generally? Is this anti-papist bigotry exposing itself? pl

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