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25 May 2011

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William R. Cumming

Suppose an international effort started to Internationalize the HOLY LANDs! If that happened what would happen?

blowback

Yet another Zionist spouting the old land for peace bilge, i.e, "We'll take your land but we won't allow you to live in peace".

J

blowback,

I propose a counter offer to mr. gledell's -- use the 67 border delineation as stated with no 'modifications'. In other words, what the U.N. said at the time in 1967 goes as is -- period. If the parties that be don't like, they can lump it.

bth

I am inclined to hear more.

What would it mean to an Arab Muslim or Christian living in Israel?

Jackie

Gee, I thought I was the only one with a negative perception of this plan,

It seems a little to one sided.

eakens

This is just like the oil cos. which raise gas prices and then drop them marginally to make everybody feel good.

This shouldn't be up to the Israelis if any there will ever be peace.

Kieran

I have a better idea. If in your view this really would be a "fair and just division of the land" as you put it, how about the Israelis take the bits of the West Bank on offer, plus the Super-Gaza you envision (based on the desert that for some wholly unaccountable reason Israelis "are never going to populate"), while the Palestinians get the rest? Please, pull my finger of peace.

Marcus

Awful lot of ceding to Israel with very little compensation to the Palestinians.

With the changes in Egypt and the debacle of Israel's last adventure in the North I think the Arabs feel the pendulum swinging their way.

Not even a serious starting offer.

Jane

WRC: Why do you want the Vatican and Mecca and Lhasa internationalized?

Cal

I'll just leave gedell with this quote.

'Greed is a fat demon with a small mouth and whatever you feed it is never enough.'

- Janwillem van de Wetering

toto

This post would be easier to follow with a map.

jdledell

blowback - What I have outlined is a peace of the possible. Regardless of who is to blame for the present condition, it is impossible to go back to square one. What I have proposed would involve the relocation of about 118,000 settlers, including 31 of my 37 relatives. It gives back 95.3% of the West Bank with additional land for Gaza to be able to grow.

The entire premise of this proposal is it would allow the new Palestine a REAL state, not the trucated non-viable one that Netanyahu has in mind. It will have direct access to the sea via Gaza and a genuine border with Jordan.

William Cummings - Internationalizing the entire area would be a bureaucratic nightmare that neither party wants or could live with. However, internationalizing the old city might be a better solution than the joint adminsistration I have outlined.

I've asked Pat to change my name on the article to the one I use on the web - jdledell.

Patrick Lang

jdledell

My apologies. it was late at night. My wife has left me to deal with the three dogs while she is gone to a college reunion. My arthritis is bothering me, etc. BTW, I find your analysis to be very worthwhile and would like to see some of the commenters talk about the parts of the design in detail pl

Ael

The two state solution is dead. Arik Sharon killed it.

The only fail solution remaining is to enfranchise everyone between river and sea.

One person, one vote.

Then they can work out whatever details remain on the floor of the Knesset in a democratic fashion.

The Twisted Genius

All,

If you plug some of the place names into Google Maps, you'll get a visual idea of the borders proposed by jdledell. I would not be so quick to dismiss this proposal. Remember, jdledell proposed this as a position to be taken by the Israeli government. This would be a stunning statement if Bibi ever pronounced it.

jdledell,

I applaud your constructive post. The shock of seeing the phrase "ceded to Israel" so many times is probably lessened once the area is mapped out. You suggested ceding control of an aquifer to Palestine. How important is this aquifer to the area? I gather you see water security as an important part of the viability of Israel or Palestine. I am intrigued by your proposal for a greater Gaza with a rail connection to the West Bank. How much, if any, of Be'er Sheva are you considering giving to Palestine? How does the Negev land compare to West Bank land in human usability or habitability? Your proposed security arrangements are indeed bold. Would Israel be ready for a Hizballah-like defense for Palestine?

Kieran

If Israel does not offer the Palestinians a desirable two state solution (at a minimum, 1967 borders, and it would take some persuading) and end the occupation the next logical move will be for the Palestinians to abandon their struggle for a second state and to demand their full civic rights under the existing state which occupies the entire territory. They would be a fairly substantial voting bloc. In other words, a single state: the end of apartheid.

Patrick Lang

kieran

IMO a confederation of Israel, Palestine abd Jordan is the best idea. pl

LeaNder

It would help to have a map. From reading I have the impression that almost all settlements will go to Israel, with a piece of the Negev given to the Palestinians in exchange, since:

"The Jews of Israel are never going to populate the Negev so turning it over to the Palestinians is no big loss."

I am very ill-tempered today, thus cynicism alert:
And yes, they get a power plant, desalination plants, and one aquifer under a settlement that goes to Israel, and a train connection between WB and Gaza - using the gracefully donated Negev piece of land as part of the route? That can't really be a direct connection. But these orientals do have so much time to waste, and Israel has security needs. There you go.

And if they don't take this, they won't get anything, which is fair solution.

Charles I

gledell, please, which Charles are you responding to, what comment, and what is your other citizenship.

This serious proposal is not for a state. I applaud the detail and the earnest attempt at practical consideration of the future. You have omitted the Palestinians and their souls from the maps. It is a plan for a sovereign "Jewish" state, and a place to live for the captives, overrun with Nato and the IAEA, presumably reporting Palestinian violations of its own "statehood" and attorning to Israel.

What Palestinian, besides the negotiators in the wikileaks, would find that limited sovereignty, that subordinated existence while the aggressor enjoys full nuclear armed sovereignty and commands religious distinction for itself, just or acceptable, even if, in all the circumstances, it was the best of all bad options?

The imperative demand for formal recognition for a Jewish State, plying international relations the language of Judea and Samaria whilst strangling the Palestinian "state" with civil legal restrictions is just so antithetical to human notions of emotional reality, no matter how realistic, that almost any other course - even another few decades of occupation until demographics and global trends overwhelm Israel would appeal.

You cannot demand a supranormal Jewish state and offer an enlarged, yet stunted prison yard patrolled by different warders in exchange and imagine a felicitous response. Even acceptance of such a plan could never be the end of it given the mutual suffering and legalistic disparities.


For all the facts on the ground, for all its power and security needs, Israel's only answer must be freedom and equality, or the demanding Jewish state will remain an subordinating antagonist provoking the universal urge to free and independent association.

Charles I

oops I see, reading backwards

LeaNder

"IMO a confederation of Israel, Palestine abd Jordan is the best idea. pl"

Absolutely. But it is ultimately a future scenario. Up to a Mediterranean Union, maybe.

What about leaving all settlements in the future Palestinian state? I would assume the fanatics would prefer to move. Settlers can decide to become Palestinian citizen or move to Israel. And--I know that's not a very military/defense perspective--start a huge reconciliation project? With a Palestinian constitution that does not allow segregation. Easy access to education both ways.

Israel already started to make Arab a compulsory language. Wasn't there something like that? yes:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/arabic-studies-to-become-compulsory-in-israeli-schools-1.309941

I miss the html tags.

William R. Cumming

Jane! They already are internationalized! My advocacy is for their access to all instead of internationalized as now as a possible source of apocalyptic retribution. Pretending that these places are the not the subject of current international policies is exactly the problem.

If humanity wants the world's religions (9fine by me) it must either enforce tolerance or continue to allow savage intolerance. In essence a new Peace of Westphalia must outlaw religious wars or the time for humanities occupation of the earth will end sooner than expect IMO! This does not mean suppression of religions except perhaps for various economic religions but suppression of intolerance. A dream but if not the alternative is a nightmare.

jdledell

I want to thank all who have made thoughtful comments. I will attempt to respond.
1. Is this totally fair to the Palestinians - no. But it represents the maximum that I think Israel will agree to. I am looking for a solution and so I am trying to be practical. It is possible that if the arabs wait long enough they and the rest of the world might force Israel to give up more land - in particular Ariel and Ma'ale Adumim. The question is whether waiting for that additional 2% of the land is worth it. I think a quicker resolution will be worth it to the Palestinians.

2 - The issue of water ressources has been raised and this is critical. Right now Israel controls the West Bank aquifers and the inequities between Jews and Palestinians in its distribution is enormous. I would propose Palestine would control all water resources in their West Bank territory, including the one under Ariel. Water resource distribution for the entire land between the river and the sea should be jointly administered since Israel is draining the coastal aquifer fast, leaving little for Gaza.

3 - The land I have proposed ceding to Palestine is not as good as the land Israel is keeping. It borders the Negev. It is habitable but not suitable for farming until the desalinization plants are up and running. The desalinization plants are critical to my proposal since it will allow Gaza to thrive and farm when the coastal aquifer runs dry. I am not proposing any part of Be'er Sheva going to the Palestinians except for the rail line which will run close by.

4. From a defense standpoint this makes the West Bank and Gaza the equivalent of South Lebanon. There is no way to prevent that if Palestine is to be a real state. With Egypt opening Rafah, Gaza is almost already there. The Israelis know this and are not happy but Hezballah type defenses are not an existential threat to Israel. They will cause Israel much pain if war ever breaks out again but Israel would still prevail militarily.

I know Israelis and in my visits I have had met with many, many Palestinians including Hamas members. I am a regular visitor to Sari Nusseibeh's forums that he runs at Al Quds University. I have talked with Saeb Erekat at these forums and think I have an idea what the Palestinians will accept. While my Hebrew is excellent, I have only passable conversational arabic ability. Nonetheless, with follow ups in English I don't think I am misunderstanding Palestinian intentions. This damn conflict has gone on FAR too long. People can hold out for the ideal 100% solution but who wants to wait another 100 years.

LeaNder

"2 – Ariel on a more or less straight line to the west would be ceded to Israel and would include the villages of Kiryat Revava, Netafim, Barkan, Elkana, Shaare Tikva and Etz Efrayim. However, this is conditional on Israel ceding the aquifer under Ariel to Palestinian control."

Facts on the ground:
location:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salfit

Israel planning to steal more land from Palestinians
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/israel-planning-to-steal-more-land-from-palestinians.html

Sallahuddin satti

I feel Israel appears so sure footed not because of its inherent strength but the US support.The arrogance of accept the offer on our terms and conditions or take a walk is neither civilised nor principled.To live in perpetual fear and hostility and under the illusion of invincibilty is not correct.All human beings have to be respected[that equally includes Israelis] as per certain universal principles and Israel cannot be given a special and priviliged right by the international community to treat Palestinians as children of a lesser God.The area and the people in this area deserve to live in peace with dignity and both sides have to be sincere and just for this wish to materialise one day.The sooner the better.

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