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25 May 2011

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Retired (once-Serving)Patriot

Bibi has killed any chance of peace.

Which was exactly what this trip was all about. And perhaps Bibi's entire administration is all about as well.

Too bad there will be little to no coverage of the "whys?" when busses start exploding again. Instead, the rhetoric will turn up past max to decry the inhuman behaviors of "those people" and perhaps to add "material support" allegations against the IRI too.

Sigh.

RP

Matthew

RP: It will be even worse. The Palestinians may have finally realized that total non-cooperation and delegitimization are infinitely more powerful weapons than murdering bus passengers.

Non-violence isn't just morally powerful, it is the only way the Weaker Side can actually bring about change.

markfromireland

"Bibi has killed any chance of peace.

&

"There is nothing left to negotiate.

Which, surely, was the purpose of the exercise.

J

Colonel,

It is sad to see Palestine as 'occupied territory' instead of a peaceful area with a successful concluded final 'just' agreement for both sides.

Not only has the Israel Occupation Force (IOF) 'occupied' Palestinian lands, the IOF has also 'occupied' our U.S. Congress and our White House. The only way I fear that we the U.S. will be able to wrest our nation back, will require the use of deadly force against the Israeli occupier by the only entity of the U.S. that has the ability to stand up to the IOF, our DoD. And the Israeli bully knows it, that is why they have been laboring unceasingly to ensure that DoD becomes one of their 'occupied territories' as well. And we thought the Russians and Chinese were the enemy, little did we realize that the incipient parasite IOF would cause much greater damage against our beloved U.S..

Charles

I'm surprised (although I shouldn't be) that the critics of BN's speech don't offer any ideas of their own on what he should have said, only that he shouldn't have said it. I'd ask: Shouldn't have said what? That the Palestinians should accept Israel's right to exist? That the Palestinians should stop indoctrinating their children that suicide bombers who attack civilians are honorable? That an organization supported by Iran, that celebrated 9/11 and that protested the death of UBL cannot be a partner for peace? Which of these are even controversial?

We always look at Israel as the one that must "give up their demands in the pursuit of peace" but the Palestinians have to give as well. And the one issue which is rightly non-negotiable from Israel's side is the recognition of the State of Israel.

I've traveled all through Israel and there is a lot of undeveloped land in Israel and the West Bank. This is not about land. There is plenty for both sides. This is about existence.

Matthew

This shows you the level of cynicism: Peace as long as the Palestinians live in a Platonic Form. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/into-netanyahus-arms/2011/05/24/AFH6CjAH_story.html

So why cynical, instead just delusional? Milbank should know his subject is not a "moderate" by her reactions. There might be no moderates left in Israel, but why should we accept their self-labeling?


Patrick Lang

Charles

I would favor a confederation of two or three cantons and a capital in Jerusalem. I wish he had said that he favored that as well. pl

Roy G

Funny that the Zionists who always complain about the Palestinians not recognizing Israel as a Jewish state are the same ones who refuse to recognize the Palestinians as a people and a country.

Bibi and Co complain about being delegitimized, when, in fact, they are doing it to themselves. Meanwhile, they continue to try every trick in the book to deny the Palestinians even a shred of legitimacy. This will change in the UN.

chimneyswift

Goals Bibi achieved with this speech:

-Kill any chance of continued/renewed peace process.

-Play to hard right within Israel.

-Undermine US diplomatic efforts with Arab states.

-Deligitimize Obama in front of Congress.

Ugh.

jonst

I'm rooting for the wall.

Charles

PL,

I can't imagine a confederation could work, but I wouldn't oppose it if that's what the people there wanted. At the first step, though, it would also require the Palestinians to accept the Israelis' presence as legitimate.

Matthew

Roy: You've hit the nail on the head. The Israelis don't want "diplommatic recognition," they want the Palestinians to foreswear any rights to be there. And once the Palestinians admit that they that they have no legitimate claims--indeed, basically acknowledge that they are "squatters" on Jewish property--then the Israelis will reach a deal with them.

This is why Bibi is so good for the Palestinians: After his speech, who can credibly argue that Israel is politically ready for "painful concessions"?

Charles

Roy, BN recognized the Palestinians' right to a country yesterday in his speech before Congress. He only asked that the Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist in return. Seems fair.

tunde

charles,
i take issue with the received wisdom that palestinians indoctrinate their children to lionise suicide bombers. that's hasbara for american consumption. has it happened ? sure. is it normal school curricula ? utter tripe.
fatah has recognised israel's right to existence. the oslo accords were based on that. bibi's hostility to oslo and it's still-born offsprings is well known. iirc, shaul mofaz said 1,000 days without a single rocket fired from the palestinian territories would be indicative of good-faith by the palestinians towards peace. ie, an impossibly high bar (even without israeli directed agent-provocateurs within hamas). the israeli securocracy does'nt want peace. dov weisglass said it back in '04. bibi's rejectionism is a verbal reiteration of it.
and you're right. it's not about land per se. it's about water sources AND land.

Anna-Marina

Charles, some people have a lot of "undeveloped" places in their houses. Do you recognize that the Bill of Rights should be applied universally?

Israelis authorities talk and behave like new Arians. As Alexander Sokurov said, Stalin and Hitler were average people who did what they did because they could. The unaccountability converts regular people into moral monsters. Israel rejects the basic laws of the Western civilization on a ground of being the "chosen" ones. They are sharpening the sword they live by.

…as Moshe Dayan famously declared, "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann05252011.html

New Orleans

Charles: Netanyahu should have said Israel is doomed. It may be doomed by a permanent military occupation of Arab land, or it may be doomed by the day when the Palestinians within those territories demand citizenship.

Perhaps there is a third, more desirable option (aka, a Palestinian state), but Netanyahu will never grasp it.

Stephanie

You go to the table with the partner you have, Charles. One day Lloyd George is claiming that he has terror by the throat and he’ll never never negotiate with ruthless gunmen and the next he’s sitting across from Michael Collins. That’s how it works and the Israelis know that as well as anyone. The “we have no partner” business is mere pretext, nothing more, and they get away with it because of the US.

As for attacks on civilians, forgive me if I’m surprised that you would even raise the subject....

arbogast

Over 43 million Americans are on food stamps and their Congress is giving 30 standing ovations to the leader of a foreign country entirely and completely dependent on billions of dollars in American taxes.

They aren't? In the words of Sammy the Bull Gravano, "Then where's the problem?"

steve

Charles,

Do you think it would have been a good idea for Netanyahu to remounce the following portions of the Likud Charter during his speech?

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan River."

http://mydd.com/users/mainstreet/posts/the-likud-charter-wiping-palestine-off-the-map

Why is such rejectionism only a problem with Hamas?

Matthew

Charles: Since you claim that Bibi has recognized a Palestinian state, could you link us to a map of this state?

Heaven and the Lost City of Atlantis are "recognized" too--just undetectable.

eakens

They're preparing for war. It's easier to claim land you won in battle than was prescribed to you through the clouds.

arbogast

I could have been more succinct (not the first time).

Money talks, nobody walks.

Charles

Well let me take these each in turn.

tunde: it is not hasbara to point out that Hamas runs children's shows glorifying suicide bombers. That's easy to see just by turning on the TV in the region. Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzlFPm7bymY&feature=related. al-Manar broadcasts the same things.

A-M: If it's in their houses it isn't undeveloped so not sure your point. Mine is that the issue is not that the two peoples do not have enough land to coexist. BN said if the Palestinians would accept the State of Israel they would accept a Palestinian State, but not until then. The Palestinians have rejected that time after time.

NO: I agree that the Palestinians within Israel's borders demanding citizenship would doom Israel. I even suggested that to a Palestinian "Diplomat" once who almost foamed at the mouth at the suggestion, so I think the actual danger to Israel is small because their leaders think small. Israel is not an occupier. They live there and have every bit as much of a claim to the land as the Palestinians.

Steph: And how did that work for Lloyd George? What we now know about the Goldstone Report shows the issue of civilian attacks is very one-sided. I look forward to the investigations conducted by Hamas on their use of human shields, attacks on civilians and sexual abuse of foreign "peace activists."

steve: I think BN did renounce that in his speech, and rightly so. He was clearly speaking of a Palestinian State on the West Bank. His statement that it is his job to lead his people to peace was an indication, I think, that he understands that he is not completely in line with his party on this.

OK, let's keep this going.

dan bradburd

Anyone see Charlie Rose's show last night? Why the full court press of Netanyahu syncophants telling what a great job he did and how weak Obama is? My take is that the AIPAC folks sense the situation is (just, just) starting to tip against them and are working hard to make it seem (and thus perhaps be) not so.

Jackie

Charles: Regarding your first comment that the Palestinians should recognize Israel, I don't see why they should.

They are not the ones stealing Jewish land and demolishing Jewish homes. You expect them to be happy with the meager scraps Israel throws their way?

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