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04 April 2011


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Ken Hoop

Just discovered, after reading that MQ rejected the Hadith and Sunnah, an emerging? "Quran only" quranist movement. I guess this is permanently resigned to the margins, rather than something which could play a part in weakening Islam from within or as encouraged by those who would weaken it from without.

Patrick Lang

ken hoop

I suppose you know that the various kinds of sharia are based on what are called the "roots of the law," and not just on Qur'an and Hadith, except for the Hanbalis.

"something which could play a part in weakening Islam from within..." Ah, so you are; an isolationist, and anti-Islam as well. How about catholics. There is still the possibility that the pope might take over in the US. pl


I come here for enlightenment and I find it. Thanks.

Ken Hoop

I'm not sure what you call "anti-Islam."

When Jean Marie LePen was quite in the running for French PM he and Saddam conferred and the latter agreed tentatively to take significant numbers of Muslims off France's hands in return for a French absolute neutralist policy which would not help in any way the American-Israeli combine.

It's quite possible American interventionists, however selective and presumably critical of Israel would have opposed this deal and even called LePen "anti-Islamic" in implementing it.

Not I.

Patrick Lang

ken hoop

What about Muslims in France who are French first? "Harkis" and their children, par example? What about French citizens and their descendants who fought for France? pl


With respect to a "new" form of Islam emerging in the US, I have done some work with interfaith groups here in Virginia. The young Muslims seem, compared to their parents, to be headed in the direction of either becoming non-practicing or considerably more traditionalist/hard-core. Perhaps one might make a roughh analogy to American Protestantism, where as I understand the trend is away from the liberal, mainline denominations towards evangelicals or not practicing? I will look for some statistics on this.


I could understand a Fatwah(?) against Jones, what is the reasoning behind killing people that had nothing to do with it? Is this another reason to kill occupiers?

Patrick Lang


By now there are many fatwas against him. Which would you like? Why kill the innocent in this matter? They cannot get their hands on Jones. pl

Patrick Lang


Statistics do no good in this. you have to talk to people and look in your heart. pl


Ken Hoop,

when was Jean Marie LePen ever "quite in the running for French PM"? The PM in France is appointed by the president and to my knowledge LePen was never on the list of any French president to become PM. You probably mean that LePen once was "quite in the running" for the presidency, because made it to the second round of the 2002 election. A second round, in which he got trounced almost 5:1 by Chirac because he was so utterly unacceptable for the vast majority of the French electorate.

The idea that LePen would ever seriously have been in a position to strike a deal with Saddam concerning the fate of French Muslims sounds, sorry, rather preposterous to me. 'American interventionists' would appear to have been by far the least problem for this kind of a 'deal'.


"American political tradition protects such acts?" I don't think so.

Burning a Quran can be considered akin to falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.

The principle was established by the Supreme Court in 1919 for speech which appeared to serve no conceivable useful purpose and is extremely and imminently dangerous.

The Court's decision upheld a law making it illegal to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I.

If speech opposing the draft can be banned, then banning burnings of the Quran seems equally justifiable.

Of course, parochial Pastor Jones would not have clue about such things.

Charlie Wilson


This post is a treasure. As for the a*****e who asked if you had been napalmed in VA. He/she should be executed at dawn.

Patrick Lang


"Napalm" A battlefield weapon, to get the full flavor of what this was like you would have to have seen the effect of "people's courts" run in the countryside by VC agitprop cadres. First they would put small farmers (the on;y ones available) on trial for being enemies of "the people." The condemned would dig their own graves and then the villagers would kill them with shovels and axes so that all would be responsible. This technique (taught by the Chinese) was intended to create commitment. I am pleased to tell you that such "fandangos" did not always go on unimpeded. pl


So how do Afghans view the brutal murder of UN personnel by a mob? Is this acceptable behavior in an Islamic culture under the circumstances?

It seems to me we try to explain away a murder like this because as a western culture we are afraid of radical Islam and unwilling to call murder what it is in a situation like this.

And its not just western culture that is living in fear of Islam. Look at the politicians in Pakistan that are silenced by murder over blasphemy laws.

One wonders if legalized murder for blasphemy or religious desecration is compatible with the modern era.


Do you think Jones caused the recent killings of UN workers in Afghanistan?

Patrick Lang


As a proximate cause, yes. Is their medieval culture ultimately responsible? Certainly. pl

Roy G

One of the great services that SST provides is a great education about Islam, a murky subject for most. By now, almost ten years into the so-called GWOT, more and more people are realizing that reality is not so sinister. Yes, there are plenty of tribal fundamentalists (on both sides), but once again, it is more about money and power than God and religion; the light that Jones sees is the same one seen by the Hagee – somebody is paying these men well for their 'visions.' The same could easily be said for many radical Muslim clerics as well.



Are you really suggesting that we base American free speech laws on the reactions of people an ocean away?

Are you saying that those who burned the Quran broke American laws and should be tried and convicted?

In the age of instant around the world communications, it seems hard to know sometimes where one person's right to be offensive should yield to someone's desire not be offended. Still, I don't see how we can tell the world: American law will be guided by your religious feelings, laws and customs.


Thanks for an enlightening and thought-provoking post.


The Col wrote: "Other people, in Afghanistan, are paying for his stupidity."

As we are paying for the stupidity of, among many others, some Afghans.

Personally, I am not inclined to accept condemnation from people, some of whom, supported the blowing up of Buddhist statutes.

As for Jones. The person is really unworthy of further comment.


It is not accurate to say Christians believe that the Bible was simply "...written by people." The Catholic Catechism says that "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit." It is, as Muslims believe of the Quran, the inspired, unbegotten word of God. In both cases the respective religions believe a human hand held the pen, but God moved it.

We don't see Christians attacking unarmed civilians in response to a blasphemy because we understand that man can neither create nor destroy the word of God. Burn all the bibles you like, but the word remains.

Burning a Quran is ignorant and gratuitous but killing to avenge that affront cannot be justified in any case.

Patrick Lang


I, too, know quite a bit about Christian scripture. There is a qualitative difference between the attitude of the Catholic Church (your example)towards scripture and that of the Muslims. The Catholic Church holds that the books of the canon of the Bible were written under divine inspiration. The Muslms do not think that. They believe that the Qur'an is literally part of the mind of God. pl

Byron Raum

There's one part here that I don't understand. If the Quran is a part of God's mind, then why does burning some paper, glue, and ink constitute an affront? Isn't the whole concept of "copy of the Quran" meaningless? How can you copy a part of God's mind?

I understand that Pastor Jones intended to insult God and the desire to insult, coupled with any word or action in of itself constitutes an insult. But we already know that he's an infidel and therefore cannot be expected to abide by what Muslims (and many others) would consider to be polite behavior. So what changed here? All he's really done is express something that we already knew was in his black heart.

As a practical matter, in a world where anyone can go to Quran.com and hit "Print", such extreme sensitivity would appear to be a serious vulnerability.

Norbert M Salamon

Intereesting as to the possible raminifications of the Saudis destroying a Mosqe in Bahrain, and allowing the Holy Koran to burn in the rubble [see press TV]


It is interesting that Muslims have only one answer to every disagreement, missionaries handing out Bibles, adultery, Koran burning, etc...: DEATH.
Doesn't Islam have lesser or misdemeanor violations?
Maybe a fine, or temporary banishment?
It's always death with this bunch.

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