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24 March 2011

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Dan Gackle

Col. Lang:

In discourse that is not as constrained by the mindset you describe, I notice one point being repeated increasingly often. It is that given present trends, Israel faces one of three outcomes: full-fledged apartheid, democracy with an Arab majority, or mass expulsion of Arabs. Do you agree with this assessment? If you are inclined to give it, I would like to hear your view on which of these (or other) outcomes is likely and which (if any) might prove stable.

Medicine Man

The best part is the J-Street crowd isn't really that far removed from the mainstream Israeli point of view. They're Zionist-lite; a more feel-good version of AIPAC. Two decades ago, nothing they are advocating would have been controversial at all, but now they're the enemy, duh duh duuuh.

So here's the 64K question: How long will the American citizenry swallow the propaganda? From my distant vantage, it doesn't look like this kind of manipulation is even on the public's radar.

 Charles I

SOS III recently counseled us to be mindful of antisemitism in our rsistance to the actions of the GOI. The default accusation of antisemitism - bait and switch PLUS a little slander - to reasoned criticism of actions broadly reported as factual in the MSM may be defensively ingrained, and a pecadillo to be patiently argued around.

But when the organized fifth columns spew it out I sometimes get the sense that while the bait and switch is an intentional tactic, the accusation of antisemitism is as well. Indeed could be parsed as intentionally crafted to elicit emotional rather than analytical response.

Which would be of course, infuriating, and hardly conducive to the estimation of one's interlocutor and any but the most base response to unfounded personal attack.

Suicidal indeed.

Adam L. Silverman

I like how WaPo article reports that Israel is considering investigating the foreign sources of funding for Israeli human rights groups and other social and political organizations. I would imagine that the same Israeli legislators and politicians who feel the need for this would pitch a giant hissy fit if American legislators, elected and appointed officials, and others called for similar investigations of a whole host of American organizations including lobbying organizations, PACs, research institutes, and think tanks.

William R. Cumming

DAN! I agree with your options but also think heavy Israeli out migration might occur under certain conditions short of warfare.

But my thoughts on this post are quite complicated and originally intended to comment with supplementary remarks on DH excellent post. So hope to get back sometime today.

Patrick Lang

WRC rt al

IMO evolution into a completely apartheid state is already under way. pl

William R. Cumming

Well there is some evidence of close ties between Israel and S. Africa both Aparteid ended. Most artillery ammo including 105 and 155 rounds Israel used in their various wars were S.African production. Birds of a feather?

Sidney O. Smith III

If Israel agreed to a two state solution along the 67 borders, peace would bloom in the desert and the world would rally around the cause.

But no evidence suggests that such a two state solution will happen and all evidence suggests otherwise. J Street may help but Weiss’ arguments trump those of J Street.

As a result, Rabbi Teitelbaum’s analytical assumptions regarding Zionism are all coming true, to the point you start wondering if he was a prophet.

Speaking of which, the good professor Dr. Brenner wrote eloquently and at great length about Buddha’s smile when recently hobnobbing with the Melrose Ave crowd, aka the Huffington Post. Buddha’s smile seemed the point of his article, “Buddha as Icon”.

But, if I may, what is wrong with Rabbi Teitelbaum’s smile? Buddha doesn’t have anything on Rabbi Teitelbaum when it comes to a beatific smile. Take a look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Teitelbaum

If Dr. Brenner wants to break new ground, maybe he should consider an article, “Rabbi Teitelbaum as Icon” in which he argues that Buddha’s smile is much like that of Rabbi Teitelbaum. But don’t expect an audience with Arianna at Spago.

Adam L. Silverman

Mr Smith: a reference to the Buddha's smile is not merely a comment on aesthetics of iconography. It is an allusion to the Buddhist scriptures that reference Shakyamuni's (an honorific name for the historic Buddha) smile. Additionally, as a devout Jew Rabbi Teitelbaum would be opposed to any form of iconography and mortified at any suggestion that his visage or image should be represented in any way as these both violate the tenets of Judaism.

Matthew

Col: I frequently get calls from the British embassy seeking updates on my lobbying of Congress (to rubberstamp decisions made by Her Majesty's government).

Doesn't every immigrant get these calls? (Sarcasm.)

JohnH

If J-Street represents a distinction without a difference, I wonder what the Likudniks thing of this organization? "Jewish Voice for Peace members are inspired by Jewish tradition to work together for peace, social justice, equality, human rights, respect for international law, and a U.S. foreign policy based on these ideals.

JVP opposes anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim, and anti-Arab bigotry and oppression. JVP seeks an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem; security and self-determination for Israelis and Palestinians; a just solution for Palestinian refugees based on principles established in international law; an end to violence against civilians; and peace and justice for all peoples of the Middle East."
http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

Thank goodness for organizations like Jewish Voices for Peace!

optimax

adam l. silverman,
'...Israel is considering investigating the foreign sources of funding for Israeli human rights groups and other social and political organizations.' that line in wapo is so hypocritical it made me laugh.
as an american i find elvis's smile, with the smirk, to be our national icon similiar to buddha's.

Chris E

"asserting that the group’s love of Israel “has strings attached.”"

Other than God's and your Mother's what sort of love *doesn't* come with strings attached?

Patrick Lang

Chris E

I have doubts about my mother who was schizophrenic. pl

LeaNder

Sidney, I don't understand what you are trying to tell us. I'll save the link to Michael Brenner's article nevertheless. But it seems to be about iconography.

But strictly Buddha smiles reminds me of my fascination with a simple but striking theme in the writings of Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki in my youth.

Compare the traditional Christian iconography with the Buddhist. The Christian makes sense if you consider that many of the most devote followers were martyrs. Not only did they adore the man on the cross but they followed him. Compare Jesus at the cross with Buddha. Full of life, round and relaxed.

But isn't it strange that Christian adore a sacrificial lamb? Someone killed like a common criminal? Isn't there something hypocritical about it?

As a Catholic myself I don't have the slightest intention to insult our host. But, unlike most of his followers, I see Jesus as rebel, and I think he would have been closer to Siddharta then many, many Christians especially the followers of Hagee et al. Siddhartha worried about similar things as Jesus. You think the average Christian does?

The challenge is to dance in chains, as Pat puts it, and yes, smile.

Concerning J Street, this is a good example of what they are up against.

Patrick Lang

LeaNder

You dance well in chains. it is sorrowful that our holy mother the Church has so soiled itself. pl

William R. Cumming

Finally getting back and originally was going to use this comment or some variation thereof on DH excellent post A POISONED CHALICE"!
Clearly no one can speak for others on their reactions to the HOLOCAUST personally or emotionally and I do not pretend to do so. I do believe that the seeds of the HOLOCAUST were long present in Western Civilization and ethnic cleansing and destruction of the "other" is a stronger current in history than many would like to believe or can even understand. I also don't believe in historical determinism. Meaning by that that we cannot by free will choose different paths, hopefully better paths to the future.
I do think some historic events do however determine a different history. I just finished reading an historical novel, much like PL's in that it represents 16 years of research by Hope Muntz and published in 1949 entitled "The Golden Warrior" about King Harold and the events leading up and the battle of Hastings in October 1066 when the Norman Prince William The Bastard defeated Harold. That last successful invasion of English soil did lead down a very different path than might have occurred with Harold's victory. The same goes for the absence of the Holocaust.
Growing up in Arlington County Virginia, the son of a civil servant, I did find that many families had fathers in the military or civil service. Not Arlington today as much too expensive for all but those with double incomes and superior incomes. Yet I had a friendship with two sons of a friendly and well regarded haberdasher that had a store directly across from the Clarendon Metro stop and now next to a Hardtimes Cafe.
These sons were older than me but often hung around the store learning the business and helping out. I delievered newspapers to that store, including the now non-existent Evening Star. About the middle of 10th grade in delivering the paper one of the sons told me that he and his brother were immigrating to Israel and if I remember correctly not with the approval of their parents. But could be wrong about that fact. I will be 69 this August so was about 15 but it did start me thinking, why would someone do this. I understood that someone threatened or a holocaust survivor might have a different concern but that someone would permanently depart from the USA did surprise me. Since that event I have certainly focused from time to time on the motives and consequences of such an act. That is all background.
Perhaps something in my background has always given me to be an admirer of persons who stand their ground. King Harold did even though he lost. While I don't believe any war has winners, given the choice of CO status during Viet Nam when the draft reached me I served. I understand that some causes like military service in our Republic must sometimes be answered by service. And I always wondered at the self-delusion as the millions, not all of course, of European Jews marched into the ovens. Truly I will never understand that history and don't understand it. But unfortunately the HOLOCAUST did largely succeed in the destruction of the European Jews. So I can understand the desire for a safe homeland and a place to practice religion.
But I do believe after my lifetime since first learning of Jewish friends desiring to "return" that again is some very odd way the Jews who did that from countries like the USA did NOT stand their ground. The fight against anti-semitisim should have been made here because it clearly does exist. Gregory Peck in "Gentlemen's Agreement" is instructive on that score. So my point is simple. Perhaps those on J-Street finally have been made to understand that their fight to save Judiasm is here not there and there will be consequences stay or go. I believe that J-street is the first stirring of what may well be a return to the USA of those Israelis with duel citizenship. Perhaps not. I do know that choices are made, must be made,and those choices have consequences good and bad. And choices more than some think are personal choices not always imposed by a culture, a system or whatever. But there is no doubt in my mind that the fight for the Jewish faith that is most important is here in the USA and other societies as well as Israel. Which of those stands is the most important for that significant and important religion and its influence on even Greco-roman culture in the past and Western Civilization in the present and future will only be determined over time. My problem also includes the notion that Islam is a product of Western Civilization not some other part of the world where it prospers in many instances and prospers peacefully. To add perspective to the European dilemma I ask people what if all the Mexicans, Central Americans and S. Americans illegally or legally immigrating to this country were Muslims not largely Catholic in their religious belief?

Sidney O. Smith III

LeaNder

Good news, one hopes. In an earlier comment regarding Dr. Brenner’s Karma Buddha essay at the Huffington Post, I covered much on your checklist: Merton, Suzuki, chakras, and mandalas at Chartres Cathedral. It may get your imprimatur.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2011/03/new-brenner-piece-on-ta.html

The point I am trying to make is this: the good professor Dr. Brenner, imo, is a cut above the Huffington Post crowd, and I found his Buddha essay somewhat somber. A touch of melancholy actually.

Based on his prior writings, I was expecting that he would have written something along the lines of “From Karma Sutra to Karma Buddha, growing old gracefully with a smile.” Maybe he was interested in some of that celebrity arm jewelry that Arianna highlights with photographs on the right side of Huffington Post. If his next essay is titled, “The boundless joy of Saccidananda at Spago”, then I really am going to question his intentions.

Regardless, I simply was trying to convey the message that the same tradition to which Dr. Brenner alluded -- apophatic contemplation -- exists in the West as well as the East, and the creativity that springs from such is reflected in art. So, yes, the West has something to offer too.

And with that in mind, I certainly place Rabbi Teitelbaum in the same category as Suzuki, at a minimum. He was an enormously gifted man.

But again, my only interest at least in a public forum is to define the analytical assumptions that best serve the American people And those that arise from the Satmar view,at least right now, are all coming true to the point it is mindboggling. So these analytical assumptions are an invaluable tool if you are interested in strategic intel on behalf of the US.

The accuracy of these analytical assumptions leave those of the Jacobins in the dust. So I believe the Satmar community deserves a bit more credit. Plus as a lagniappe, they are totally Jewish and completely American. I sometimes say to myself, if the “Divine” doesn’t care for the Satmar community, then there is not a “Divine” and last person around turn off the lights. But that is just me.

If it makes you feel more comfortable, in my opinion, it doesn’t matter where the analytical assumptions come from. If I had been in VN in 1964 (and I wasn’t) and a Confucian in the countryside gave me the right analytical assumptions to promote the national security interests of the US, then I am listening to the Confucian, despite the fact there is no cachet (ticket punching) in doing so. (hat tip Marguerite Higgins, as I think that was the point of her book).

And, good Lord, what is wrong with saying Rabbi Teitelbaum has a great smile? Has it come to this?

If the good professor wants to stir things up at HP, maybe he should write a followup essay titled, “Judah Benjamin and his Tibetan smile”. Then that’s it for the good professor in HP land.

William R. Cumming

SoS!Are you familiar with the acronym COIK or COICK not sure which it is? Stands for something like "known only to insiders"! This is not a criticism but some of your comments and allusions are well beyond my understanding. By the way what in your view are the top ten religions that have had some influence on you? No rush! Since I am now largely a Gaian and raised a Quakerterian I am curious!

LeaNder

Sidney, I'll look into this a little more time at hand. Do you think, I will then understand, how Michael Brenner and/or his article: The Buddha As Icon is related to the hearing of Israeli lawmakers on J-Street? And how in turn Buddha as an icon is related to Rabbi Teitelbaum, J-Street and the Knesset? I still do not quite get it.

Count me among the sceptics that there was only one single visionary in our larger context. My basic assumption would be that everyone gets a chance to look like a prophet once in a while. Concerning the political, revisionist, nationalist Zionists their own times of being considered the one and only visionary may well end, with the result that many, many of the warning voices of the cultural Zionists may well be consulted or listened to again.

Byron Raum

An integral part of apartheid is contempt of the underclass. Unfortunately, that already exists in spades.

Norbert M Salamon

All:

IMO that most readers would be interested in the following articles:

Please excuse the off topic listing here. I consulted with the Colonel regarding the first citation, 2005 technical note from the IAEA reviewing all thorium based operating [3] and past experimental many] nuclear power production facilities This article needs knowledge of nuclear science imo.

http://www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/IAEA-TECDOC-1450.pdf

The following article is a general treatment of Thorium reactors, comprehensible by most educated persons:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4971

The following article is a report of China’s plan to build a thorium reactor

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8393984/Safe-nuclear-does-exist-and-China-is-leading-the-way-with-thorium.html

The article below is an analysis of the role of speculation regarding agricultural commodioties and oil, indicating that speculation is over emphasized in MSM land:

http://bigpictureagriculture.blogspot.com/2011/03/are-speculators-to-blame-for-high-food.html

Financial Times raises issue of oil price causing recession and further analysis thereof by an actuarian:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7562#more

A graphic depiction opf the status of the 6 reactors therein Fukushina Dai-ichi status and slow moving issues:

http://www.theoildrum.com/

Ken Hoop

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/03/22/hamas-un-holocaust.html

The UN is attempting to guilt trip a properly resisting Palestinian community regards the "orthodox" hc story which might well ultimately be revised to something more approximating the analysis of Prof. Arno Mayer.

Fred

Ken,

Interesting news, especially this quote "....a program whose basis is universal lessons of ethical behaviour and human rights." which is very appropriate considering what is happening now:

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Israel-Threatens-to-Use-Great-Force-in-Gaza-118663979.html

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