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18 February 2011

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Grumpy

In my view, is Omar Suleiman the puppet or the puppeteer? I doubt if he's the puppeteer and more like just a puppet of Mubarak.

Barry Kelly

This article seems very old - Google thinks it's from Feb 6, but that's just the date on the photo. 16 days from Jan 25 was Feb 10, the day before Mubarak's departure was announced in that weird statement.

steve

Perhaps I read the article too hastily, but it appeared to me that the article was written a week ago, before Mubarak resigned.

Patrick Lang

Grumpy et al

I think this Time article is from the 10th. Somehow this is being served up by Google News as new. Sorry. pl

Peter Principle

Of course, the fact that the article is dated doesn't mean Suleiman isn't running the junta from behind the scenes. He certainly seems to have dropped off the map since Mubarak bugged out.

William R. Cumming

IMO the JUNTA is being run by Mubarack but have absolutely no evidence other than the strange security at his location. And some indication that remote location was set up long ago for administration of Egyptian affairs.

Grumpy

The issue at hand from the article from Time Magazine is still valid because we do not know the location of Suleiman. This is not a minor detail. Until we have definitive proof of his location and what role he is playing in Egypt's future government. With the location of Mubarak and Sulseiman's background, combined with Iran's action to move warships through the Suez Canal, we need factual answers and not opinion, mind included.

Yusuf  Al-Misry

Col Lang..It seems at least partially true. Gen. Sulliman still goes to his office, and sometimes to the Presidential Palace. Zakaria Azmy, the chief of staff of the former president is still in the Palace. Shafiq says he is in regular contact with Mubarak and many of the old group's men, "business men", state security high ranking officers, governors of provinces and ministers are working together in what is called here "a counter revolution". One of the leaders of the youth read on Friday a list of what they called "the secret organization" which is busy rebuilding the old regime perhaps under the guidance of Mubarak himself. We will see how the fight will end.

LeaNder

If you do a fast search on the latest article by Karon via Google you end up here:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2049559,00.html

Post-Mubarak Egypt: Whose Transition Is It, Anyway?
By Tony Karon Wednesday, Feb. 16, 2011

But even that article is slightly dated now. While the article you link to went up 11 hours ago, it shows no date. Could it be a technical error?

There were rumors that Suleiman and Tantawi are rivals, maybe Yusuf al-Misry can comment on this:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/02/inside-egypt.html

Obviously everything is possible. But the speeches of Mubarak and Suleiman preceded and followed by a speech by the military would suggest a rather elaborate psychops to me. In other words a scenario that is only based on suspicion. Clearly the military had most support.

Jake

Evidence? Its Time Magazine! They don't need no stinking ...evidence....

DanM

The consensus here in Cairo (for whatever that's worth) is that he's completely out of the picture. Tantawi seems in charge.

I think i wrote a story the day Mubarak fell that Suleiman would "surely continue to play a key role." I feel very stupid about that now. Is it possible that he's exercising his super-secret spy powers from behind some curtain? Well, maybe. But the sense I get is that he's out -- rivals happy to see the back of him.

Patrick Lang

DanM

Instinct (and nothing more) tells me that OS is out. pl

Grumpy

Col. Lang, I deeply respect the honesty which you have shown in this very difficult time. DanM, you are showing the very same honesty. But, this is NOT about either of you. The issue is OS and his role, if any, in Egypt. The issues in question are the popularity of the Egyptian Military. But, who is in charge of this popular Egyptian Military? Our concern was that OS went underground, within the Egyptian Military/Security Network. I don't think anybody here, was trying to make this situation any more difficult. But, in comparison, this discussion will be nothing compared to the potential grief from this situation.

Col. Lang, a profound THANK YOU, for allowing me to enter into this most important discussion.

As always,
Grumpy

Patrick Lang

Grumpy

"About us?" Nothing is "about me." What is your EVIDENCE that OS is running anything now?

At least now we know where you work. pl

Patrick Lang

Grumpy

Ah, I see now that you are insutling me and calling my integrity into question. Be gone. pl

LeaNder

Ah, I see now that you are insutling me and calling my integrity into question. Be gone. pl

I'll keep that in mind for more dangerous days. Ostentatious flattering does not help.

Thanks Yusuf, the question is mot that he goes there, but what he is doing there, or what are his orders. I do not have our host's experience. My impression was that Suleiman acted as his master's loyal servant. But his "duties" don't necessarily need to be directed towards the future, they could be directed towards the past. When our chancellor Kohl wasn't re-elected in 1998 after having been in power for 15 years there was a lot of cleaning up to do. Many files disappeared and the electronic data was clean as a virgin after.

Could the US in times of Wikileaks have an interest in a cleaning up?

Grumpy

Col. Lang, Sir, I meant no disrespect to you or to your integrity. We are all dealing with perception, at best. My point was his Official Position in the High Military Council.

Sir, I wish you well. “Be: gone.” I will respect you wish and make it so. I may read, but not comment.

Patrick Lang

LeaNder

"My impression was that Suleiman acted as his master's loyal servant."

What was your "impression" based on, drivel in the press in places like Time magazine where "Grumpy" seems to work? I am rather sure that I know who "Grumpy is. If so, he is the most over-rated former intelligence person on the scene.

OS was Egypt's servant. "Grumpy" would not understand that. p

Patrick Lang

Grumpy

Good. pl

LeaNder

What was your "impression" based on, drivel in the press in places like Time magazine where "Grumpy" seems to work?

I don't read the Times. From watching his TV appearances, including his interview. Which obviously was a bit hindered by the fact that the translator always had to signal via "answer" Suleiman's responses. I don't remember the exact term you used, but it was he was overly patriarchal, more precisely patronizing. The "youth"! The ones that shouldn't have worried that one of them beaten to dead by police? He didn't addressed concerns of the protesters. He never addressed them as people with legitimate demands.

But obviously you ask what the impression was based on. On zero knowledge about the man and the culture. I think his task was impossible to master. Maybe he would have had a chance had Mubarak stepped back and left interim affairs to Suleiman. But it must be really hard to give up power. Maybe. Maybe not, since everybody would have suspected that Mubarak still holds the reins.

But, my main problem were his statements that it all happened only because of bad outside instigators. See above never addressing the concerns of the protesters.

**************************

A elder German lady once answered when I complained about the continuity of Nazi elites in post WWII: Yes, but who else would have had leadership experience. I thought about that while watching the Sunni policies in Iraq, the disbanding of the army. On a minor level Egypt is facing this dilemma now. The elites, and not just Suleiman were all more or less complicit.

Patrick Lang

LeaNder

You admit that you know nothing of the man or the culture but you still dare to compare him to the Nazis. How deluded you are about the centrality of place of European history!. pl

LeaNder

but you still dare to compare him to the Nazis.

you misunderstand. I would never compare any Egyptian including Mubarak with the Nazis, neither did I like it when Saddam was compared to Hitler.

What is on my mind are structural similarities. Does it make sense to not work with anyone who was a cog in the Mubarak regime. Does it make sense to get rid of all the courtiers, the ones who more or less profited from his reign? Probable not. Iraq changed my mind. Obviously because it couldn't be compared to the Nazis.

Maybe, as you say, Omar would have been a good choice. I honestly respect your opinion, your esteem of the man.

Patrick Lang

All

Grumpy and I have composed our differences. He is unbanned. pl

William R. Cumming

Have any specific steps been taken by the High Military Council since its assumption of power that might indicate its direction? Other than communications of intent?

Grumpy

First of all, thank you, to ALL.

William R. Cumming, you raise a series of questions about the High Military Council and where it's going. Personally, I believe your questions are extremely important. We never get the right answers unless we ask the right questions. You ask for the specific steps and what direction? But, as you put it, “Other than communications of intent?” My point is this, unless we know more about the High Military Council and its members, we will have no context.

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