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26 February 2011


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Sidney O. Smith III

As long as the Zionist goal remains a greater Israel, then NATO membership serves to promote the clash of civilizations narrative.

Such NATO membership would serve to transfer Muslim and Islam anger that arises from continued Likud Zionist atrocities onto the European people, that is the West.

The idea of Israel as part of NATO is a corollary to the historical theme of ensuring that Likud Zionist atrocities are associated with the US.

Basic pattern is the following: the Likud driven GOI commits atrocities, then hides behind the flag of Western powers, and all the while markets itself as a democratic beacon to the world.

Israel is a not a secular democracy based on the Western model of religious freedom. It is a nation, in 2011, driven by ethnic militarism that has usurped extremely powerful Judaic religious symbols to create a racial experience.

The death of the 2 state solution proves it, along with continued annexation of East Jerusalem with an ultimate goal of destroying Al Asqa.

If Israel agrees to the 2 state solution along the 67 borders, then a different narrative emerges that warrants reconsideration. But the Zionist rejection of Buber, Judah Magnes (Jerry Haber today) and others makes such a scenario implausible, to the say the least. At this time, to believe otherwise, is simply to justify further atrocities, in which the US takes the blame.

Yet, astonishingly, the USG continues to engage in the delusion of a 2 state solution, when all evidence, at least right now, establishes it is dead.

With that in mind, no greater proof exists to establish the USG is not representing the American people in its foreign policy decisions in the Middle East.

Same dynamic would exists if a special relationship was created between NATO and a Likud driven Israel.

So bringing up the idea of Israel as part of NATO is proof that neoconservatives see a clash of civilizations as the only real option left to create a greater Israel.

William R. Cumming

Very interesting post Professor Kiracofe. I think Israel in NATO an outstanding idea on two conditions. First, US withdrawal from NATO and then end to dual citizen status with regard to US citizenship for any Israeli with dual citizenship.
You might regard these two conditions as directed against Israel. Actually they are not.
But you must understand some background. First when visiting Europe for the first time in 1964, visited the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam and unlike today no lines. I broke out in tears having read her diary. My college friends with me thought I had cracked up. They were engineers fascinated by the details of the hide. Second before my various clearances came through in EUCOM in fall 1968, I was designated pay officer for my unit. Another hilarious story out of that another time since the US Army still paid in small unmarked bills in cash at the time. Anyhow I had a black soldier in the "Stockade" at DACHAU! I had to travel from my unit to DACHAU to pay that soldier who a previous commander had sent for a late night stayover with his German girlfriend-he was black and former Commander white. I had to pass the ovens to get to the US troop. When returning to my unit I posted a memo through the chain of command to General Polk asking the question had anyone reviewed the implications of incarceration of US forces in DACHAU which had occurred almostcontinuously since WWII! I mentioned a hypothetical! A US Jewish soldier who was sent there and then wrote his Jewish grandmother where he was imprisoned. DACHAU was closed 6 months later.
This diversion is to indicate my concern in both the issue of US guilt over the HOLOCAUST based on official and unoffical US actions and two as background for my conditions.

First, the costs of US participation in NATO now override any and allpercieved or actual benefits. Willing to argue against all comers. Second, the dual citizenship issue is distorting US policy and in fact I would argue that those with dual citizenship NOW should undergo special vetting before granting any security clearance. Note that I don't believe any question on forms for security clearance ask whether the individual possesses dual citizenship or non-domestic US bank accounts) but if that is accurate both questions should be added. Somehow US basic interests in EU and Arabia have become totally distorted. I believe with respect to Israel it is "guilt" and with respect to ARABIA energy. If that conclusion is correct then something needs to be done about it. I don't believe in collective guilt from any standpoint and believe that in fact is the underpinning of the Nuremberg War Crimes trials which I have studied at some length. An OSCAR winning movie, "Judgment at Nurember" 1961 with Spencer Tracey and Maxmillian Schell should be review by all periodically.
The Libyan revolution and the current policy towards Israel are in fact to me just more indicators that we just don't have very competent leaderhsip in the US and often corrupted for various reasons! I think we should pull out of NATO now and then let NATO decide its membership. And dual citizenship should be reviewed rapidly for its origins and problematic impact on US policy. Apologize for the length of this post and will NOT happen again.


Israel in NATO? Sheer insanity.

Sidney O. Smith III


I must agree with Jonst.

Something I hope you will consider. According to the Satmar Rabbis, Zionism ultimately will generate anti-Semitism because Gentiles will associate GOI atrocities with all the Jewish people. In other words, instead of associating the Jewish people with sacred Judaic values, they will become associated with ethnic militant nationalism.

What in the world is going to happened when everyone starts to believe that all Jewish people are like FM Lieberman? Well…look around.

Also look at Israel’s closest friends right now, Hagee and company. Their ideology is anti-Semitic to the core. They want all the Jewish people rounded up in one place in the world to see them destroyed.

Plus, one cannot help but wonder if more secular supporters of Israel are enabling such Likud atrocities out of repressed guilt. The guilt empowerment dynamic always results in anything but true friendship.

But, again, if someone like Jerry Haber (the Magnes Zionist) becomes Israel’s prime minister, no one will be happier than myself. Leon Uris will, once again, become a centerpiece in my outlook.

Until then…no one has preserved Judaic values more beautifully than Rabbi Teitelbaum, imo. And, looking long range, the best way to prevent the rise of anti-Semitism is to acknowledge his greatness to Gentiles.


I don't believe there is a chance that Israel could actually get into NATO.

Merkel chides Netanyahu for failing to make 'a single step to advance peace'

Netanyahu told Merkel he was disappointed by Germany's vote and by Merkel's refusal to accept Israel's requests before the [UN] vote, the source added. Merkel was furious.

"How dare you," she said, according to the official. "You are the one who disappointed us. You haven't made a single step to advance peace."

Germany also blocked NATO membership for Georgia and the Ukraine. That was for the sake of relations with Russia. It would block NATO membership for Israel because the export market in Arabia is too big to let it go.

As for EU - very unlikely that there will be consent for ANY new member. It is more likely that some countries will leave the EU in the next decade.


Israel as a "Western democracy"? Really?

Do we stone vehicles and threaten people who try to shop on the Sabbath? Do we segregate buses by gender?
Do we award citizenship to any Christian from anywhere in the world, but deny it to the spouse of any Jew or Muslim who attempts to immigrate here?

These are not the actions of a Western democracy.

BTW, this goy is not sending his children to die for the Zionist dream. I couldn't give a rat's a** if the Muslims ultimately retake Jerusalem...again.


"“Israel is our first line of defence in a turbulent region that is constantly at risk of descending into chaos; a region vital to our energy security owing to our overdependence on Middle Eastern oil; a region that forms the front line in the fight against extremism. If Israel goes down, we all go down.”

First line of defense? Since when has Israel done anything for us defense wise? Militarily we need Israel like we need a hole in our head.


great idea, no green line, blue line but defined internationally recognized borders. moreover, it would have to follow the 4th Geneva convention as to occupied territories and human rights.

Roy G

Isn't having fixed, internationally recognized borders a precondition for entering into treaty alliances?


New reality in Middle East, same old responses from Israel, I see.

On the other hand my own thinking is revolving quite rapidly. The new economic realities -- for me personally and the US government and its deficit -- makes me increasingly intolerant about stupid no-go proposals like this.

Time to Israel and Israel defenders to wake up to the changes happening to their friends and enemies alike and respond in a realistic and responsible way, for a change.

Man, I don't even want to this stuff anymore, even as a joke. Seriously, leave me alone. No more parasites who specialize at creating endless problems, please.

Roy G

Oops, I see my question was answered in the Herzliya thread. Other questions exist, though: Would NATO be admitting the 'Jewish State of Israel'? In that case, what about the Vatican? Would NATO become the defender of religious entities, or just the 'exceptional' ones?

Charles I

Sidney, you answered my who/where is our Magnes today, from your earlier post. Another thing to look up!

The whole idea is bonkers, have to be accomplished before Israel does something beyond the pale, admittedly quite high bar by current standards.

William R. Cumming, fantastic anecdote, guilt making us guilty. Current U.S. foreign policy does seem ridiculously expensive and distorts the economy. Drives me nuts, they'd sell us the oil anyway.

Do not apologize. Make it happen again and again.


I think it's a fantasy.

First, as has been pointed out, it would require completely rewriting the NATO charter. Article 1 at minimum, and Articles 4-6 would force the question of what constitutes Israeli territory. I rather doubt that the rest of NATO would be willing to sign a blank cheque covering whatever land Israel decides to grab in the future, and the Israelis are similarly unwilling to define the maximum extent of the state of Israel. It'd also require Article 10 be rewritten, because I don't see any way to get everyone currently in NATO to agree to Israel joining.

Which is another issue, I can't see any clear way of amending the NATO charter, short of unanimous consent from the members to amend it. There's no provision in the text itself for amendments.

Finally there are the issues raised by the 2008 Georgian war. It had to be a sobering realization for the eastern members of NATO that, had Georgia been in NATO, they would have either been at war with Russia over the fate of 70,000 Ossettians and a scrap of territory, or forced to blow NATO's credibility by not intervening on behalf of a member nation.

Israel has the advantage of not being next to a world power, but the same logic applies. Is the rest of NATO willing to go to war against Iran or Syria or Lebanon or Egypt over the final status of some scraps of territory in the middle east? Because being a NATO member will embolden Israel more than their stockpile of nukes.

All of which is not to say they won't try, since there's a rather depressing history of Zionist American fantasies inspiring real world actions. I just can't see it happening under NATO's current legal framework.

Sam Will

"Every time I read an op-ed in the New York Times that was written by a 'senior scholar' from the Hoover Institute or a "fellow" from the Cato Institute, I want to scream, please replace that with "paid whore funded by psychotic right-wing billionaire." Which is significantly more accurate-" Larry Beinhart , an American author....
So much for thinkers in USA and their instant philosophies, the other being Samuel Huntington ,who wrote about the 'Clash of Civilizations.' What is happening is the struggle for power and hegemony by use of the Gods by followers of three revealed religions in the Middle East...

William R. Cumming

Perhaps this conclusion is erroneus but do wonder why most of the LIKUD leadership seems to have grown up or spent significant time in the US?


"funded by psychotic right-wing billionaire"

You mean like the idiot Governor from Wisconsin?


and Part Duce...



Would the Israeli jets carry NATO markings or Israeli markings when they bombed civilian targets?

William P. Fitzgerald III


The Seventh Army Stockade in Dachau! Your mention of that is a blast from the past. I recall some troopers who, we were all sure, arranged to get themselves sent to Dachau just as the season for manuevers and tank gunnery (late autumn through early spring)began.



Why are we in NATO? Before WWI the US was admired for staying out of European affairs. I'm more worried about Mexico falling a part and the drug lords than about Russia.


I can't fathom anyone believing Americans or the US or the world at large for that matter should have any guilt over the holocaust.
The only people guilty for the Jewish holocaust are the long dead Nazis and their collaborators.
The notion of US or the allies 'guilt' is pure propaganda.

As for Israel being included in NATO...well that would be a one way street wouldn't it?

Do they even meet the requirements? I think not.

I am sure US would end up having to pay Israel's fare for NATO, increase their military aid and etc..
And who thinks Israel would actually commit Jewish lives to some NATO action that didn't directly benefit them?
And how would they be practically of any use except in the ME?
How much was it the US paid Israel for extra security during the Gulf War?...10 million or something like that. I believe we also gave them additional millions for 'their security' prior to our Iraq adventure.
The Israeli military has never been put to any purpose other than occupation of Palestine attacks on Lebanon in decades.
The idea is ridiculous.

Clifford Kiracofe

From the Embassy of Israel, Washington DC website, 10 February 2011:

"In a joint press conference in Jerusalem, Wednesday (February 9), Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen acknowledged their shared interest in peace and security in the Middle East and a long-term goal to strenthen their cooperation.

"We have many common values and many common interests in a time of great uncertainty and shifting sands," said Netanyahu.

Addressing regional concerns, Rasmussen said, "I’m here because we share security concerns and interests when it comes to counter-terrorism, countering the proliferation of nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. When it comes to missile threat and a risk of disruption of energy supplies and all these areas and all other areas we share security concerns."

"Security challenges of today cannot be successfully tackled by any country alone, so we have to cooperate and I look forward to strengthening the political dialogue as well as practical cooperation," Rasmussen continued."

Phil Giraldi

Israel usually gets what it wants by virtue of its patron in Washington, but there are three major objections to NATO entry. First is the issue of Israel not having fixed borders - difficult to enter a defensive alliance if one does not know where the border is. Second is the well documented history of Israeli war crimes. Third is the Israeli propensity to start wars. Would an Israeli attack on Lebanon require the rest of NATO to provide support? I think it far more likely that Israel will enter into some kind of security arrangement bilaterally with the US that will obligate Washington to provide support no matter what Israel does, ignoring the history of war crimes, the lack of a border, and the belligerency of successive Israeli governments.


I'd be very sympathetic, if Israel was located in Europe. Or in the neighborhood of the North Atlantic region. SEATO membership would make as much sense, really.

But, seriously, if Israel wants true security in coming decades they might consider joining in the regional initiative to establish a Nuclear Free Zone in the Middle East. That, and negotiating a just peace with the Palestinians.

NATO would be absolutely insane to welcome a new member that regularly indulges in armed incursions across its borders, fires missiles across its borders, conducts bombing campaigns against civilian and infrastructure targets in neighboring countries, and keeps a subject population in crushing poverty, denied of basic human rights. I can't think of a better way to convince Arab populations that the West has never shed its Crusader mentality. But if Israel can convince the West to do its dirty work for it, for free, then who's the fool?

William R. Cumming

Obvious a slight facetiousness to my conditions but they should be reviewed closely. In fact I think they might be worth becoming a campaign plank for someone interested in reshaping US foreign policy and affairs.

And William P. Fitzgerald, III, I believe GRAFENWOHR (sic) was a worse fate for trainees than DACHAU and probably back to the time when the Bavarian Guard units trained there to fight the Prussians. An apochrophyl story perhaps but a GERMAN OBERST told me that in WWI the Bavarians poured out of their barracks only to be greatly disappointed to find they were fighting the FRENCH and not the Prussians.
C'est La Guerre.

Mike C

I'm a little surprised nobody's had more to say about Bruce Jackson. He's a project director of PNAC, the founder of the Project on Transitional Democracies and co-founder of its forerunner US Committee on NATO, was chairman of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq which Prof. Kiracofe alluded to, was a LockMart VP at the same time he was pushing for NATO expansion in E. Europe... on and on like that. He was also an Army Intel Officer (no rank cited) and worked in the OSD from '86- '90 specializing in arms control. I'm curious if Col. Lang ever ran into him.

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