Equal Treatment for Women Soldiers

The repeal of DADT logically raises the issue of discriminatory and "separate but equal" treatment for women in the armed forces.  Having repealed DADT on the basis of a need for equality and social leveling the Congress should now be asked to justify why women generally should not be treated with equal justice.

This should be considered in two areas:

1- Limitations on service specialties.  At present the Congress has blocked women from service in the infantry, armor and special forces (MOS group 18). Should it not be the case that women who wish to serve in these specialties should be allowed to do so if they are physically capable?

2- The Department of Defense has announced that its response to the repeal of DADT will include a policy that there will be no separate facilities provided for openly gay service members.  In other words, no separate; living space, shower facilities, latrines (bathrooms), etc.  Since the provision of such separate facilities for women was predicated on the sexual attraction between heterosexual males and females, the open service of male and female homosexuals who are sexually attracted by people of their own sex should call into question the existence of any separate facilities in the military for reasons of gender difference.

The proponents of repeal have argued that military policies with regard to fraternization, assault and public sexual behavior will be sufficient to prevent misbehavior under this change. If this is true then what is the rationale for not expecting the same with regard to heterosexual relationships and facilities in the US military?  pl

Comments

[Rachel]

Females still need separate facilities to give them some measure of protection against rape. Given that closeted service members have been living with same-gender comrades for years and we have not seen any sexual attacks perpetrated by gay service members, protection is not a big issue in this case.

[dan of steele]

interesting question, are you suggesting the US military should be more like the Israeli where I am told men and women even shower together?

how would that work in our somewhat puritanical society? to some extent this mixing of the genders is already going on in dormitories where men and women are on the same floors but not yet in the same room as far as I know. what happens when the lights go out is a whole nuther thing.

having lived through the process of women going into career fields previously held exclusively by men I would be tempted to leave this alone for now. it was a rather difficult transition for a lot of men and women too. it seems to me to be ok now.

[The Moar You Know]

I wrote a much longer post but decided brevity was preferable. I don't think that you "get" homosexuality - and I don't mean that disparagingly, because I didn't get it for a long time either. Let me share what made me "get it":

I have a friend who is homosexual and I once asked him "Do you ever think about having sex with me because you are gay?" to which he replied "Do you ever think about having sex with Rosie O'Donnell because you are straight? Same thing."

Lesson learned in two sentences. I find the idea of relations with Rosie O'Donnell unthinkable. Literally unthinkable.

The lesson here is pretty simple. What gay men are looking for are not what straight men are.

I suspect the repeal of DADT will be far less of an issue than most think it will.

[William R. Cumming]

Great questions! Mine would focus on recruiting changes also in the Service Academies.

Note while I "volunteered"for OCS did not know my wife was officially off limits and off the first 11 weeks of that 29 week pilgramage. Not all the permutations and combinations possible on sexual orientation can be covered by the UCMJ! Nor sexual positions! Nor who is involved.

[Patrick Lang]

The Moar you Know

"What gay men are looking for are not what straight men are."

Nonsense. You need to get out more.

How about equality for women? pl

[Patrick Lang]

WRC

I don't understand. They already recuit women for the service academies. Now they will have a quota for recruiting gay men and women, instead of the closeted gay people they already have there. pl

[Patrick Lang]

dan of steele

Women may shower with men in the IDF but they are not given combat arms jobs. they have not been given jobs like that since the War of Independence. pl

[Patrick Lang]

Rachel

According to Dan of Steel above, women DO shower with men in the IDF. Are we so inferior that this enlightened practice should not be followed here? Of course, in Israel, women from conservative religious families are excused from the draft on the basis of morality.

Women need to be protected from rape? Rape is a felonious offense under UCMJ. Homosexual male soldiers have not been involved in rape? Repeal changes the social circumstances altogether and nothing in the past is an indication of how the situation will develop.

Until women serve equally they will never be treated as equals in the US armed forces. They are not now. pl

[batondor]

Pat,

"I don't understand. They already recuit women for the service academies. Now they will have a quota for recruiting gay men and women, instead of the closeted gay people they already have there. pl"

Is there really such a quota for women today? Is there an effective quota or preference for any group other than the obvious one: the children of men and women who have served (especially graduates of the academies)?

I mean this question in all seriousness. I seriously considered attending either West Point or the Air Force Academy in the early 70's but did not for various reasons... but I did become familiar with the process and discovered at the time that many slots were allocated for the offspring of previous graduates (and this is not to suggest that those candidates were not otherwise qualified either intellectually or culturally...).

[Patrick Lang]

batondor

They will never admit it but they have a quota for everything, or "goals" if you prefer. Surely you are not so maive. They are great hypocrites at the service academies. a good example was the first time they made a woman cadet a cadet regimental commander. they then claimed that her "achievement" proved women were equal in performance as though God had appointed her and not the administration of West Point. Why would they do that? It is because "they' are overwhelmingly "SJs" in Myers-Briggs terms. it takes them five years to internalize any significant change, but once they do they are committed to it. COIN anyone?

Army officer promotions ar e much the same thing through full colonel. An "order of merit" list is assembled by the promotion board based on the record. This establishes a cut off point below which one does not get promoted. Remember, this is a personnel system based on "up or out." Then this list is changed to make sure that categories of people that the Army feels must be promoted ARE promoted. Women, (sometimes) African-Americans, American Indians, various other categories, etc. For every one of these inserted because of a quota at the bottom of a list someone falls below the cut-off line and is not promoted. Is this fair? No. Nothing is fair. There is no justice.

There are no "goals" for appointment of legacies to WP. That is taken care of informally. The same thing is true of officer promotions. Feel better? pl

[Phil Giraldi]

I might be a troglodyte on this issue (and others), but isn't it true that women cannot perform physically as well or as consistently as men because of lesser upper body strength and menstruation cycles? Having been in government service when the military was degendered in the 1980s my recollection is that it was an unmitigated disaster in terms of efficiency and combat readiness. Don't know what it's like now, but I would assume that there continue to be enormous problems relating to unwed pregnancy and other issues. As for gays, there were a lot of homosexuals in intel when I served (1968-1971) but they kept to themselves and never were a problem. What will it be like now that the issue is out of the closet and there will inevitably be assertive gay activists enlisting to make a point and advance an agenda?

[fasteddiez]

Coltsonel:

So let me get this straight. The IDF's pogues/REMFS are rewarded by getting to shower/fraternize with the women soldiers?

Alternatively, Les durs à cuire de la Legion (Grunts) are rewarded for their efforts via Bordels Mobiles de Campagne.

Talk about a contrast of priorities! Is nothing sacred (Yeah, yeah, I know the answer).

This explains everything about the NeoKon influence in the US of A; the non-combattant, oily, deal making, schmoozing, oxygen thieving, lead deficiency syndrome suffering, cretins of the world score big time....again.

Like I said afore; "We all have it coming."

[Patrick Lang]

Phil, Phil

I said "if they are physically capable." The die is cast we have to get with the program.

I accept what you say about gays in MI although all the gays I knew in the Army were in the infantry and special forces. The infantry ones were variegated, everything from a Korean War veteran with a Silver Star to two draftees who tried to kill themselves because of harassment from other enlisted soldiers in the unit. Then there was an SF staff sergeant in Panama who got drunk in Colon and was caught by the MPs in the act of receiving fellatio in a parking lot on post at Ft. Gulick. He was standing with his pants down while a fellow from the attached MI detachment (There you go!) was on his knees at his feet. Picturesque.

You think there will be activists with an agenda? What a primitive thought! pl

[Patrick Lang]

fasteddiez

"Coltsonel?" The IDF has no policy against "fraternization." So, officers frequently acquire girl conscripts as concubines. The girls in the IDf get their uniforms tailored until they look like characters from "Jersey Shore." High heeled gold lame slippers with red toenail polish complete the "rig." They are not taken seriously. On the other hand, I have known a couple of women IDF intelligence OFFICERS who were serious business. pl

[Cold War Zoomie]

Gadzooks! Can she be my Valentine?

Is that pic real? Where do you find these things?

I'm not very cerebral, and really don't have much energy to argue any points anymore one way or the other. But, I will say that women in uniform today look a lot better than when I was active duty. Times have changed!

Too bad I'm just a FOM (Fat Old Man) walking the hallways.

[Patrick Lang]

CWZ

You like my niece? pl

[William R. Cumming]

Is the pictured soldier in regulation attire?

[Patrick Lang]

WRC

Looks like it to me. pl

[Bobo]

Not to be a grinch but Jessica Simpson never looked so good and the Army only wished. But then communal showers what a dream.

[fasteddiez]

Sorry Colonel, my bad! I edited the text, but not the salutation.....perhaps if you sported twin pearl handled colts?

[Fred]

A quota for promotions? Been caught by that before and the military aren't the only ones that do this.

Don't worry about the women not performing in combat, the one's who can't cut it won't be there as they, at least some of them, purposely get pregnant before deployment so they won't be there. (My sister's unit is going through that drill right now.) Similar things happen in the nuclear fields in the navy. Just imagine all the ratings that get filled with women, who can't do the job because they are pregnant.

BTW I like the niece, but I'm sure she knows better than to date submarine sailors.

[Tyler]

Did a young Jessica Simpson join the military?

Jokes aside, I don't think women should be in an integrated armed forces. We should go back to WAC and WAVES. Everytime I've seen females enter the equation its been a damn nightmare as far as morale and good order and conduct go.

[Patrick Lang]

fasteddiez

Patton? they were ivory handled. He said that only a New Orleans pimp would carry pistols with mother of pearl grips. A .45 long case Colt and a .357 magnum. He was wearing the Colt when my father stepped on his foot in Sonora in 1916. pl

[Fabius Maximus]

Not to be pedantic, but does anyone have a source for this "IDF men and women shower together" story? It's a great story, but sounds like an urban legend. A quick Google search shows nothing.

[William R. Cumming]

Thanks PL! All I can comment is WOW!