Endless war in Afghanistan

"
The U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan formally adopted a transition plan Saturday designed to turn over control of the war to Afghan security forces by 2014 but continue heavy financial and military support for the indefinite future."  Washpost

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On MSNBC General McCaffrey said today that in five years or so we might have made some progress in creating self-sustaining insititutions in Afghanistan, but the creation of an Afghan army would take a decade or more. Alternatively, he also said creation of a self sustaining Afghan state might be an open ended task.  This is all paraphrase.

Well, the NATO sheep signed up for this.  Does anyone think that their economies or people will endure such a thing?

Now it is revealed that Pakistan has refused requests for expanded scope for drone attacks in their country.  "They don't know how patience is running out on our side" an American official is quoted concerning the matter.  Or what ought to be the response.  Or what?

Are we really so stupid as to do something that might trigger a coup against the present regime in Pakistan?  Are we really that stupid?  pl 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/20/AR2010112001164.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2010111903160

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/19/AR2010111906268.html?hpid=topnews

Comments

[Jackie]

Now it is revealed that Pakistan has refused requests for expanded scope for drone attacks in their country. "They don't know how patience is running out on our side" an American official is quoted concerning the matter.

Does this American official think the Pakistanis should have patience at the possibility of being killed by a drone?

[Jake]

"Are we really that stupid? pl"

Colonel, with all due respect. I have to ask. Is this a trick question?

[frogspawn]

I get the impression that a goodly portion of American officialdom feels that other nations should put American interests ahead of their own, and that they feel shock/outrage when these other nations don't.

[walrus]

I've been wondering in geopolitical terms about silk roads, the Pamirs, and a land route between China and the Mediterranean via Afghanistan and Iran.

As far as I can tell, the only barrier to a free flow of Chinese military technology to the Middle East is provided by our control of the ground and airspace of Afghanistan and our nominal allies, Pakistan and Tajikistan.

I keep thinking that we are back in the "Spheres of influence" days where Afghanistan is seen as too strategic an asset to be in Russia, India or Chinas orbit.

I wonder if Gen. FB Ali might like to comment?

[frank durkee]

Under Acton's rubric "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" it llokw to be the subtle corruption of power and nt stupidity. Stupidity has greater possbilities for correction than corruption. One can alwayslearn;self perception, recognition and correction are much more dificult. Talk to any cinfessor for confirmation.

[walrus]

Col. Lang,

I am starting to become somewhat concerned about the way the fighting of irregular wars via counter insurgency strategies is warping procurement and force development strategies.

I was struck recently by images of an Israeli arms show (linked below) as well as the last defence related show I attended here.

What concerns me is that the seemingly endless stream of new drones, cute little robots , IED resistant trucks, and associated hardware that we are encouraged to invest in are all designed and developed on the assumption that we will always have air superiority and face an unsophisticated enemy armed with no more fire power than an RPG, .50 Cal, AK47 and a bag of fertiliser and some C4.

What happens when some helpful country produces widely available generic fire and forget anti armour and anti air missile equipment?

http://doubletapper.blogspot.com/2010/11/homeland-security-conference-day-2.html

[Patrick Lang]

walrus

I concur that the tendency towards cutesiness is going much too far and a corrective swing of the pendulum is inevitable. maybe we will see the PzH 2000 over there. pl

[William R. Cumming]

So the Taliban, Karzai, and the Chinese win? Win meaning US stays protecting opium traffic and growers, Chinese extractive industry and of course on top a corrupt Afghan government that will continue to rake off US largess. Oh did I mention the corrupt Pakistani regime that also rakes of US largess to Afghans?

[Pearl]

What's going to be the outcome?

[b]

maybe we will see the PzH 2000 over there

The Dutch and the Germans have PzH 2000s in active use in Afghanistan.

[Patrick Lang]

b

Now, that is a hell of a gun. pl

[confusedponderer]

Re: PzH 2000 is about what the Crusader was supposed to be at a fraction of the cost, and largely on budget and schedule, and weighing it at some 10 or so tons less. I hope Germany will procure it in sufficient numbers, and deploy it to Afghanistan in sufficient numbers.

[Castellio]

Where is this going?

Rannie Amiri writes: "Cantor told the Jewish Telegraph Agency (JTA) that he wants to see Israel’s massive three billion dollar annual stipend — the largest of any U.S. aid recipient — reclassified and not considered “foreign” aid. Its enormous subsidy would no longer be the purview of the State Department, but the Pentagon. If he had his way, Israel would be directly funded by the U.S. military."

The article he's quoting is over at the JTA:
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/10/24/2741415/cantor-take-israel-out-of-foreign-aid

I find this development just extraordinary.

The future is a Pentagon budget that puts the privileged on a permanent 'national security' dole.

[Cloned Poster]

PzH, how big is your dick... Germans and Dutch do porn well

[Fred]

So America needs to spend ANOTHER decade and just enough money to abolish social security for Americans before we can pull our army out of Afghanistan? What kind of 'results' did we get from the last 7 years to make anyone other than McCaffrey think another decade would change things?

If drones are so successful then Mexico should start using them against the drug cartels. I'm sure we'll be quite happy to give them free range over the border. Should they bomb the wrong people in Larado, Houston or Waco, I'm sure everyone in Texas would be understanding and supportive.

[Jim Montgomery]

"Stupid" is not the word for your question--"insane"
is.

[AJ Brickmeier]

On the other post, the one by Brig. Ali, I noted that the US cannot leave Afghanistan without inflicitng debilitating blows on the Taliban AND without eliminating the Al Qaeda safe havens in Pakistan.

This is exactly what we can expect, regardless of the lack of resolve in the White House.

As long as the Al Qaeda allied elements are around to provide safe havens in Afghanistan, we cannot leave that place.

As to the drone attacks scope, there is little evidence to suggest that there will be a coup in Pakistan should we seek more aggressive steps. The coup risk is exaggerated.

In any case, it is the Pakistani military that is effectively running that place. They can only keep raking in the cash and simultaenously support the Talib/Haqqanis so long.

[Allen Thomson]

> What happens when some helpful country produces widely available generic fire

What I worry about is when precision-guided mortar rounds and suchlike become commodity items. I'm kind of surprised it hasn't happened before now.

BTW, I've been exchanging mail with some people on the topic of MANPADS and EFP mines. The question is why they don't seem to be much in evidence the hands of bad guys these days. Any ideas?

[FB Ali]

Are we really that stupid? Or crazy?

Those are good questions to ask not only about Pakistan but also the unending Afghan war. The answer would depend on whom one asked the question. If asked of the Zionists and their US supporters, it would be: Not at all! This is just the right course. Sidney O. Smith, in an earlier thread, advanced the proposition that their aim is to embroil the US (and the West) in a perpetual war against the Muslim world ‒ the “clash of civilizations”, he called it.

Other powerful interests in the US want to keep the country embroiled in constant war, hot or cold, irrespective of the current enemy. Their answer would be the same as that of the Zionists. (Presumably, the Chinese and Russians would also heartily agree with this).

However, if looked at from the perspective of the security and prosperity of the US and its people, these policies are stupid and crazy. No one in their right mind would consider Afghanistan (in any configuration) a threat to the US. Pouring billions of borrowed money into a war there while the US’s economy and infrastructure are crumbling makes no sense. This pointless war is also destabilizing Pakistan, and risking turning it into a real threat to the US.

The Tea Party movement got this right: the American people have lost control over their government and its policies.

Walrus,

I’m sure there are some midlevel guys in the Washington policy establishment churning out papers on ‘sphere of influence’ stuff. They probably get pre-empted by all these other heavies pursuing their own much-simplified agendas. There’s not much point in creating spheres of influence around the globe when the home base is being hollowed out.

[optimax]

Cloned Poster,

And Americans like to watch. Too many Chancey Gardeners here.

[Chopperdoc]

Sir: The unfortunate answer is most likey yes. That is why I am retiring after this next deployment. I will not spend any further time over my 20 to support this stupid conflict. This will be the 5th deployment for some of my fellow Screaming Eagles, and many are just sick and tired of being gone a year at a time for something so vain and useless. This stopped being about national security after the first 6 months and the routing of the Taliban, and now it is about enriching the contractors and the people who own the companies. I am very concerned with the future of our country.

[ISL]

I wonder if the US patience with Pakistan, or the US public's patience with unending nation building in Afghanistan while our infrastructure crumbles, or the Chinese patience with our imbalance of account balance will run out first. I am going to bet on the last.

[Castellio]

Fred, what would we do should the Mexican drones drop their ordinance on the hapless of Laredo, Houston and Waco?

No one would get upset, would they? After all, they are just targeting end users of the illegal drugs they are legitimately trying to stop. It makes sense.

We should enlarge their "boxes", and insist they also target Dallas, St. Antonio and Corpus Christie as well.

That'll do it.

[Patrick Lang]

AJB

Brace yourself. pl

[Fred]

Castellio,

Glad you got my point. Hopefully no 'end users' are in a mega-church on a Sunday, otherwise there might be too much 'collateral damage'.