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06 October 2010

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ting

Have any other US allies behaved towards the US in any similar way?

Oh and I think the date 3. Oct 1973 must be wrong. According to the wiki, that war began on Oct 6.

Sidney O. Smith III

Fascinating analysis.

Subject to change, I place the probabilities as follows:

55 percent Dayan issued the order to attack the USS Liberty
45 percent Rabin.

Say it ain’t so, Rabin.

In my opinion, it is vitally important to factor in that the IDF attacked the Liberty about an hour after Dean Rusk cabled the GOI not to take the Golan Heights. So one has to look at the inner dynamics within the Israeli war cabinet that lead to their decision to take the G. Heights.

So step one would be to compare Mr. Sale’s excellent analysis, particularly the description of the unfolding of the Six Day War to Tom Segev’s book on the same. Segev -- one of the new Israeli historians -- hardly refers to the USS Liberty. But by not saying much he reveals even more. And his few paragraphs re: Liberty are absolutely key, particularly when cross referenced with other sources. Segev knows, Segev knows.

Also, it is important to remember that the GOI warned the USG to keep all ships out of what the GOI considered the theatre of war or face the consequences. As the attack on the free Gaza flotilla clearly demonstrates, Israelis believe that once they make an order, even one that has no backing in international law, they are then justified to launch pre emptive attacks.

And, while we are at it, the attack on the Gaza flotilla acts as a similar transaction (to revert to legalese) that reveals the Israeli bent of mind. And the GOI admitted that the decision to attack the flotilla came from high within in the chain of command.

So this is supporting evidence that the attack against the Liberty also came from high in the chain of command, in addition to overwhelming evidence discussed elsewhere.

As I say, Dayan or Rabin. No where lower on the chain of comman.

I am not sure there were that many Hebrew translators on the USS Liberty (Allen Blue comes to mind). But perhaps Ken Halliwell will chime in and when it comes to forensic analysis of the USS Liberty incident, Halliwell knows, Halliwell knows.

(Senator Webb knows too but alas...)

mo

Colonel,
There are some incongruities in this report that I wonder if you can clarify for me:

- Why is the Russian warning to Egypt, a ,mere 3 weeks before the war, described as a "fabrication" simply because they got the date wrong?

- Why is France described as a "strong opponent" of Israel, when it was arming Israel to the teeth (with Mirage III fighters no less) and was strongly allied with the Lebanese Maronites who in turn were close to Israel?

- How is it that US could warn Nasser about an impending attack but that no one at any point thought to tell Americas $7 million a year asset, Hussein, that he was being fed wrong intel?

- If Israeli threats of exposing America's covert activities had the US enough by the balls to stop them reacting to the murder of their own people, how is it that they continued to be trusted in further operations?

Brien J Miller

Sorry- have to question the reserach here; these ships are not sisters. One look at the wiki pictures shows that:

USS Pueblo
550 tons light, 895 tons full, 345 tons dead.
The ship was launched at the Kewaunee Shipbuilding and Engineering Company in Kewaunee, Wisconsin, on April 16, 1944, as United States Army Freight and Passenger (FP) FP-344.

USS Liberty
7725 tons (light displacement.
Her keel was laid down on 23 February 1945, as Simmons Victory, a Maritime Commission-type (VC2-S-AP3) hull, under a Maritime Commission contract at Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation of Portland, Oregon.

It's not that this is a point of trivia; the colonel often questions those who are not careful with their research and surely will those who want the Liberty incident buried. Let's not give them any ammo over trivial points. Please correct the story.

Patrick Lang

BJM

It is for Richard to "correct" his research, not me. pl


Patrick Lang

mo

Once again, I am not the author. pl

charlie

I wonder who has killed more American Citizens -- Isreal or the PLO.

Ken Halliwell

As others have noted, Mr. Sale's account of the USS Liberty incident has a few holes in it.

Based on direct evidence:

a) Of the linguists aboard Liberty, only a handful were Arab and Russian linguist. One fellow, named Baker, was formally trained in Hebrew, but he had been performing as a Spanish linguist for ten years before being temporarily assigned to Liberty, by mistake. For more info see: http://sites.google.com/site/usslibertyinquiry/essay18

b) To date, no direct evidence has surfaced (no pun intended) about a submarine being in the shallow waters directly below USS Liberty -- let alone that it was USS Andrew Jackson. On the other hand, there is hearsay that a conventional U.S. submarine (a diesel boat) was somewhere in the neighborhood.

c) The purported tampered communications between Cairo and Amman occurred on June 6 -- two days before Liberty arrived in the area. Of course, this does not preclude that the U.S. somehow discovered a deception, but it's extremely unlikely that it was via Liberty.

d) There were two internal decks that housed virtually all of Liberty's signal intercept equipment. One was immediately below main deck and completely above the waterline. The other was one level down from the first one, and about halfway below the water line. The only deck completely below the waterline was the bottom deck; it housed repair shops and a class room.

e) There was no NSA person named Allen Bloom aboard the ship. The three NSA guys were named: Allen Blue, Donald Blalock, and Robert Wilson. None of the NSA guys were in charge of anything -- they were linguists and analysts. Navy LCDR Dave Lewis was the officer in charge of all research department operations.

f) etc...

Jose

Any news on the movie being made about the incident?

Jane

So you are not the victim of aggression if you lead the would-be aggressor to believe he's got a chance to kick you when you are down?

Hmmm, so spying on an ally is okay if you are America?

Patrick Lang

Jane

Spying on an ally is "all right" for every country in the world including Israel. pl

kao_hsien_chih

Jane,

Weren't you arguing some time ago that Israel spying on USA was all right because Israel is supposedly an "ally" of United States?

confusedponderer
So you are not the victim of aggression if you lead the would-be aggressor to believe he's got a chance to kick you when you are down?

Hmmm, so spying on an ally is okay if you are America?

Spying on an ally is "all right" for every country in the world including Israel. pl
Relativity Jane,
the extent of the spying and the damage done, and in case of the USS Liberty, the violence against a nominal ally, are then factors that come into play. That and utter dishonesty in inter-'allied' communications. It is hard to retain mutual trust when you repeatedly catch someone lying in your face.

It is hard to maintain that that you are actually a US ally when your nation killed 34 and wounded 171 'allied' sailors, deliberately - in an attempt to kill them all and sink their ship.

It is equally hard to maintain that that you are actually a US ally when your nation sells out crown jewel information to an arch enemy of the US, crippling US intelligence collection against said arch enemy, with whom the US is in a half decade global thermonuclear stand off. All that while taking US financial and military support (for granted, more, regarding it as a right and entitlement).

Or those instances of the Israelis reverse engineering and/or selling to China or Russia US technology.

An alliance is characterised by reciprocity. Pursuit of some common goal, accompanied by otherwise total disregard for US interests while taking US arms and money (sucker!) is simply being parasitic.

Mutual spying aside, when in the end the 'ally' side of the balance sheet is in the deep red, the question arises whether that 'ally' is more trouble than he is worth, indeed, if he is a liability. It is a legitimate question that needs to be answered soberly.

J

Colonel,

IMO your Spying on an ally is "all right" for every country in the world including Israel. pl comment needs to be expanded to include that it is NOT all right when Israels' ESPIONAGE on U.S. puts the citizens of the ally [U.S.] at grave risk because the spying country [Israel] sold their 'ally' [U.S.] down the river. Example -- Pollard's espionage that cost the lives of 110 American assets, and over 1600 of American foreign assets! If it wasn't for U.S., Israel would not exist today. And that's the thanks that Israel gives U.S., repeated back-stabbing and endangerment!

To hell with Israel and the horse it rode in on when it puts my family and my fellow citizens at grave risk!

Sidney O. Smith III

As I say, Halliwell knows. I truly recommend reviewing his website from time to time, and then incorporate his forensic work into any overall explanation of the attack. As someone mentioned, inaccurate assertions undermine the pursuit for the truth. And Halliwell knows the USS Liberty incident in much the same manner as Neil Richardson knows German and Korean history.

http://sites.google.com/site/usslibertyinquiry/

For some reason, I thought Blue spoke Hebrew but, at best, he understood Hebrew.

Regardless, Senator Webb makes much to do about strolling Arlington National Cemetery while contemplating the spirit of America. I applaud such an idea but one would think at some point he would come across certain gravesites that would speak to the conscience. If Webb paused at these gravesites, then he might find himself reborn fighting for the USS Liberty and all the US military personnel who are risk today because of this continued cover up.

Oh well…here’s hoping…

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/liberty.htm

(Reborn fighting for reelection…could make for a good campaign slogan in Virginia, no?)

Patrick Lang

ALL

"spying" is part of the game of nations. As for hurt feelings, it is all a matter of whose ox is being gored. pl

Jake

Spying is one thing for any country. But attacking an asset of that country causing death and destruction without cause is basically an act of war and in many cases murder.

People are getting caught up with who said and reported what. The issue is getting to the truth and the only way to do that is a Congressional Investigation. The problem here is there is no out cry from the American Public for answers...

oofda

Doesn't it seem odd that a ballistic missile submarine, the ANDREW JACKSON, was purportedly involved in the mission? According to Sales' account, its mission was to 'take out Israeli long-range missile sites before the Soviets attempted to do so and produce the horrors of WWIII.' But the ANDREW JACKSON was only armed with nuclear missiles (in addition to torpedoes) and if it used those missiles on the Isreali sites, that might well have triggered WWIII. I have to question the veracity of that part of his story; there well might have been an attack boat in the area, but a boomer, no. And if a boomer was intended to be employed, it wouldn't have to be in the region, or even the Med.

Patrick Lang

Jake

You get it. Intelligence is about information. Don't confuse intelligence with covert action. Every country needs information with which to make decisions. Information is needed about allies as well as adversaries. To think anything else is naive. pl

Fred

"Israeli commander warned Defense Minister Dayan of the collapse of Israeli forces. Israel rushed to arm 13 Jericho intermediate range missiles armed with nuclear warheads."

Isreal was ready to make this a nuclear war? What were the targets? What would the death toll have been then?

Roy G

Today's Israeli spy incident comes from Akamai Technologies; one of their people got caught trying to sell technology information to - according to the major news sources - 'country X.'

http://www.itworld.com/legal/123209/would-be-akamai-spy-busted-feds

A quick google search indicated that 'country X' was indeed Israel – confirmed by the Jerusalem Post.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=190523


According to the JPost, Mr. Doxer wanted to 'to help our homeland and our war against our enemies.' And he certainly wasn't talking about the US, because he wrote this to someone whom he thought was a representative of Israel, but was really the FBI, setting him up for the sting.

J

Colonel,

It's like you say, spying is the great game of nations, BUT when it (Israel's Pollard's espionage) spills over into grave-risk and death (American & Foreign assets killed) to the American citizenry and nation's ability to survive, it ceases to be a 'game'. Israel stepped over that line. And for that I'm eternally mad as hell at them for it.

Eric Dönges

Just to get my 2 Eurocents worth in - spying on your ally to figure out what he is up to is perfectly natural; anyone not doing this is a fool. But selling secrets thus obtained to a third party hostile to your ally is treachery. (Intentionally attacking an allies' assets is of course also treachery). With "friends" like that, who needs enemies ?

confusedponderer

oofda,
iirc Polaris armed SSBN were stationed in the Mediterranean before longer range missiles allowed them to hide in deeper waters.

Jane

kao_hsien_chih,

Exactly. Both countries judged by one standard.

Agreed that what counts is what the ally does with the information they have.

So, hypothetically, what if your ally informs your enemy of the time you plan to attack?

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