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13 September 2010


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Re: Cheney rotting in Hell?

What's he doing nowadays anyway?

Cloned Poster

The Hezbollah Myth and Asymmetric Warfare


Nancy K

My biggest concern for the US is that billionaires like the Koch brothers will be able to not just influence, but will be able to buy elections.
All the the teabaggers concerned that President Obama will destroy the America that they knew and loved, need to wake up. It is the money behind their organization that is the biggest enemy.
This is just my feeling of course but as it is an open thread, I thought I'd voice it.


Thanks for the link Cloned. Its been a while since I've enjoyed such a good laugh...

Patrick Lang


I, too, thought it funny. There are too many "defense intellectuals." pl


Amen to that Colonel, especially intellectuals that seem to like to "educate" their readership on the state of the Resistance at the end of the war, without a single shred of evidence or input from them, and seem to have turned 4 years of Israeli dis-information into "fact".

From a Lebanese point of view, the more of these "analysts" that come along the better. There's nothing like going up against an over-confident opponent.

Cloned Poster

Glad you liked that Mo and the Colonel

try this


Allen Thomson

Well, since the thread is open, here's the 2009 FBI "Crime in America" stats:


SubKommander Dred

Give me some of that wonga...

Pete Deer


Just finished James Scott's (http://www.jamesmscott.com/Site/Home.html) book on the USS Liberty....That is after I read Judge Jay Crystal's book on the Liberty and took him up on his request to review the facts( http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0699/9906062.html ). I also then read Clark Clifford's book Counsel to the President (http://www.amazon.com/Counsel-President-Memoir-Clark-Clifford/dp/0394569954) since Clifford was appointed to investigate the issue somewhat for LBJ and noted all the mistakes, misquotes and word smithing that Crystal a Federal Bankruptcy Judge made.

If I was not pissed before I am now....

To bad no one in Congress has the balls to open up a Congressional Investigation on the USS Liberty!!!! Yeah nothing to be gained.... Except the truth....




What, no FBI graphic for company executives lining thier pockets while screwing employees, share and bond holders all at the same time?

On a completely different note any reccomendatoins for Kentucky Bourbon? I'll have an extra 1/2 day to tour a place next week, work schedulre permitting.



I meant to comment earlier - why the Ent in the NAPAWA thread?

And - were you the "Anonymous" poster in that thread trying to see if folks were paying attention?

Patrick Lang


No. I only post as PL. pl

Friendly Fire

Good flying skills from a Libyan pilot


William R. Cumming

The bets are now down on deflation vis a vis inflation. My bet is deflation over next 1/2 decade.

Norbert N, Salamon

interesting comment on the Afghan Study group, and discussion thereafter:


SAC Brat


Look for any place that makes "sippin' bourbon" as the natives call it. Maker's Mark is the bottom end of this group with single barrels at the top. Good stuff when done right, carburetor cleaner/floor stripper on the lower shelves.

Try also http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/index.php


Friendly Fire,
that's a Berejev Be-200, a amphibian, very easily recognised by the position of the engines on the upper rear fuselage.

Odds are it was a commercial presentation. The Russians are for a decade or two trying to sell this nice aircraft, among other things, as a fire fighting aircraft.


Friendly Fire,

Interesting video. The plane appears to be a BE-200 amphibious aircraft doing a "touch and go" despite what the video header says.


@Norbert N, Salamon

Mr. "Ad Hominem" Foust is again missing the point: In Defense of the Afghanistan Study Group Report by Justin Logan

Sidney O. Smith III



One value of the USS Liberty as an organizing principle is that it would force Bible thumping preachers -- like the guy in Gainesville -- to make a choice between the IDF and the USM. I researched the incident to know that it is an “either/or” question, not “and/both”. You are either with the USS Liberty vets (and one would hope the USM, although that hope has been dashed on more than one occasion) or the IDF. No in-between on this one.

Plus I researched the incident enough to know that probable cause exists that an injustice took place, as the NCOI was quashed due to MacNamara and Adm. McCain.

Since I am from the land of the rapturists, I am familiar with the type that attend those kinds of evangelical churches and I believe that a significant number of the followers , when confronted with reality about the USS Liberty incident, would opt for the Liberty vets over the preacher carrying on about greater Israel and killing Muslims. Those church goers really aren’t bad people; it’s the preachers going off the deep end about a greater Israel (ultimately for anti-Semitic reasons) that causes the problems.

You will note that the Gainesville preacher backed down on the Koran burning after a plea from Petraeus. Makes my point, I believe.

The USS Liberty as an organizing principle does have some problems and the narrative must be crafted carefully. Gotta thread the needle, for sure. And I don’t see anyone doing so. If not presented properly, including a unique moral balance, the USS Liberty incident has the potential to accelerate societal disintegration.


Sac Brat, thanks. I've had Makers Mark, none too sure of the rest. Will give the site a read tonight.


War, just a game for the latest generation? Or at least that's what is being marketed to them:




I am not so sure that those in Evangelical Country would side with the Liberty crew over Israel without being hit over and over again on the head with the hard facts of the incident. Much has been declassified since that day in June of 67. Anyone who calls themselves a Patriot should be demanding a Congressional Investigation to set the record straight. Though I would think the spin from the Israel lobby would be earth shattering to stop any inquiry.

But I am just boiling over the fact that we after some 30 years are as a Nation letting the crew of the USS Liberty down. No matter where the cards may fall on this incident. We owe that crew at least a congressional inquiry.

If Israel cannot handle the heat of a USS Liberty investigation or at least come clean. Then they are bigger cowards than they realize.

The Pentagon also needs to give the crew the honor they deserve. We have investigated our own messes of the past and took our lumps. Vietnam, Central America, Afghanistan, Iraq just to name a few. If we can open those wounds to achieve finalization then we can also close the chapter on the USS Liberty.

We owe the crew at least that much....

Of course that would mean that there would be someone who has honor in both the Pentagon and Congress to get the ball rolling and take the heat.

But who in Congress wants to upset that money machine? Sad day when for campaign donations and votes we let those American's who were killed and wounded be forgotten!

Never Forget? That adage is a joke as long as incidents like the USS Liberty are allowed to remain unanswered.


Sidney, you stated a point I've tried to make with much more clarity than I've mustered.

Jake, I think you are correct unless there is a big enough push made to get the Liberty on the agenda. The U.S. and Israel are treated as extensions of each other by the media, religious leaders and U.S. politicians. The Liberty would break that link in the minds of many Americans if they ever thought about it. Anti-American espionage operations such as Pollock or Nozette could do the same thing if pushed as a continuing issue. If this link between the U.S. and Israel is broken, I think the average Joe would side with the U.S. 95% of the time. It wouldn't be the path of least resistance to keep putting Israel first without being criticized for it anymore.

The problem in all of this is that the Liberty veterans could become nothing more than a political football. They deserve better than that. Another problem is that the usual antisemites would pop up and claim the issue for themselves.

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