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14 July 2010

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Fred

Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox is running for Governor and figures this will generate some votes - he sure hasn't done much about this the entire time he's been in office.

Jackie

Pat,
Wasn't the Marianas Islands (sorry, I can't remember the old name of the place) one of Tom DeLays favoite haunts? He always seemed to be advocating for the slave labor, just not the laborers? Are the governors of these states Republican?

Patrick Lang

All

Seems to me that the Arizona lawsuits by DoJ and the NAACP resolution are yet more nails in the democrats' coffin. pl

Lysander

Why is my great state of Nevada silent? It has more skin in the game than the Marianas. At least Michigan is concerned by hoards of canadians traveling across the frozen over great lakes each winter.

William R. Cumming

Does appear DOJ and HOLDER may have shot Obama in the foot or higher. Yet the real problem is if in fact the Administration loses the early rounds of this case which is highly likely. At first that will seem to reinforce states rights in the immigration arena which as I understand the cases is dueling criminal law systems not dueling civil law enforcement systems. Most states are overburdened now by unwise choices in what is a federal role and what is a state role! Examples, unemployment and medicaid are largely state run compensation systems when if in fact we are a nation and given the theories of the federal role that predominate should not now be helping to sink the states fiscally but instead sinking the feds even more fiscally. All this is caused because the founders notion of STATE and FEDERAL roles have been totally undone by the rise of the National Security State and the military/industrial/acacademic complex and its distorsion of the economics of this nation.

rick

Perhaps these are nails for the Democrats. Perhaps they are just playing to their lowest common denominator as shrilly as Republicans have for years.

Was Willie Horton a nail in the coffin of Republicans?

clifford kiracofe

Well, to develop some understanding of the present situation, one has to review the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration legislation of the 1980s.

This fatally flawed legislation brought us to the point we are currently dealing with.

The "Congressional intent" of this legislation was to halt illegal immigration and to gain some control of our borders.

But the legislation was gutted by the politically correct. Amendments to strengthen the legislation were voted down by votes of aroung 80 percent to 20 percent.

I handled this legislation as a staffer and was responsible for a number of amendments (no amnesty, for example) I have some experience with this issue. The amendments to strengthen the bill were defeated.

The legislation was kept weak and flawed by a combination corporate interests who desired cheap foreign labor (illegal or not), the so-called (and self-appointed) "Hispanic Lobby," and the "liberal" media.

Owing to the prevailing political correctness in Washington, change will be difficult on this issue.

On the other hand, the public does appear concerned and perhaps this will lead to the defeat of some of the politicians coddling illegal aliens (Democrat or Republican).

confusedponderer

Leaving the politics aside for a second to only address the narrow legal side of the issue: It appears to me that the Justice Department is legally correct when they say that the Arizona law is unconstitutional and that the federal stance is in line with a long line of precedents. Good summary to that point here.

Which, on the other hand, means not that much in light of the current SCOTUS' willingness to overturn established precedent.

As far as the politics of the matter are concerned, I agree that the approaches the R's and D's have chosen will harm the D's. Add in the pro-Israel fund-raising pressure and the D's will predictably have great difficulties in the mid-term elections.

From an R' point of view joining the case of Arizona is attractive because it cashes in on anti-immigration sentiment, plays on the now established theme of federal government tyranny, opposes the Obama administration and generates polarisation.

That's my view anyway.

lina

Though it is a time- honored tradition to blame our economic ills on the last people to arrive here, some might be interested in facts rather than cable-generated hyperbole. For those, I recommend Prof. Gordon Hanson's "The Economic Logic of Illegal Immigration" (available as PDF).

Or for a more abbreviated take, try Factcheck.org:
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/

Or if you're ADHD, try Viveca Novak for Newsweek:

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/05/14/why-americans-think-wrongly-that-illegal-immigrants-hurt-the-economy.html

If Arizona had decided to raise its own army and start a war with Nevada, would it be OK for the U.S. Justice Dept. to file a complaint? Just asking.

Ninety-nine percent of the Obama Administration's problems are found in the ineptitude of their third-rate communications shop. Why they can't explain their policies and actions so the average citizen can understand them is beyond me.

Peter

Lysander:

We do need some sort of vague ill-defined federal statute that drops the boom on those pesky Canadians who cross the border to buy fully taxed Cigarettes at CostCo, to take back into Canada.

Byron Raum

If you really want support of the liberals on this issue, change policy somewhat: whoever illegal is picked up, find their records, give them back everything they paid in social security taxes, and send them home. It is their money. They earned it. We have no right to it.

Secondly, find out whoever hired them and prosecute them according to the law.

The reason some of those of us who like to thing that we stand for a just society is that America currently treats these people as disposable. We take their labor but we are silent on enforcing our own laws against those who use them. Has Arizona or any of the other 9 states made even the slightest mention about putting illegal hirers in jail?

This is blatant, unapologetic hypocrisy.

B.R.

MRW.

Lysander and peter,

We do need some sort of vague ill-defined federal statute that drops the boom on those pesky Canadians who cross the border to buy fully taxed Cigarettes at CostCo, to take back into Canada.

Yeah, especially since that's what NAFTA was supposed to permit. Bomb the Canadians! Get Israel to build the northern fence as well!

Maybe after all the oxygen in the room has been used up fighting over 12 million illegals from around the world, the august political parties can grab some new O2 tanks and address the real cause of no jobs: we gave our best industries to India and China. Not only that, we made the Chinese sign non-disclosure agreements for five years, which they did happily! Because as our companies found out from 2007 onwards, once the contract was over, the Chinese didn't re-up. They moved across the street into a new factory with our technology, customer lists, and supply lines...and strategic plans.

I don't have the link at hand, but the conservative estimate by government sources are that 75% of the white collar US jobs available in 2000 (engineering, scientific, etc) will be overseas in 2012, with not a penny of their hiring coming back to any American community in terms of taxes, or spending.

So I guess if the Ds and Rs want to waste their lather on who gets the landscaping and cleaning jobs in the future, then this might be a good fight.

I would rather they fix the cause, but they appear preoccupied with sewing teabags on their hats or dissing the black interloper in the WH. (Called gettin' your white rage on.)

Carl O.

"Wasn't the Marianas Islands (sorry, I can't remember the old name of the place) one of Tom DeLays favoite haunts? He always seemed to be advocating for the slave labor, just not the laborers?"

This indeed, was the case. The poor laborers were all imported from China, Bangladesh and countries like that, and far outnumbered the indigenous population, Which makes it even more ironic that they would join in to support Arizona's law to keep such people out!

Allen Thomson

Mr. Kiracofe wrote,

"The legislation was kept weak and flawed by a combination corporate interests who desired cheap foreign labor (illegal or not), the so-called (and self-appointed) 'Hispanic Lobby,' and the 'liberal' media."

How do you see that combination working today? The corporate interests wanting cheap labor are mostly allied with the Republican Party which the anti-illegal-immigration forces mostly support. Bit of a conflict there that needs to be handled with some delicacy. The Hispanic Lobby/interests are if anything stronger now, and the liberal media in serious decline.

So how does that all shake out in terms of immigration reform, deporting all the illegals, or just status quo? Me, I'd bet on a somewhat nastier version of the status quo, but what do you think?

Fred

Col,

There may be many nails in both Democratic and Republican party's coffins, however you can't kill vampires by nailing the coffin lid shut.

clifford kiracofe

Allen T.,

I have not followed this issue closely for 25 years.

It may be that the issue will have an impact on the 2010 elections. We will have to await the results of that election and then see how the immigration issue factored in.

But then, we will also have to see what happens in the next Congress and how the legislation plays out, and the voting patterns associated with that legislation.

Anyone with a serious interest in the issue should go back to Simpson-Mazzoli and back to the floor debates in Congress. These are recorded in the Congressional Record which is available at major universities and educational institutions.

I do not see a status quo. Rather, given the nature of the political class in the US, I see a worsening of the situation without any effective legislation or government action.

Things can always change, as politics can be volatile, so it will be interesting to take a look at the 2010 elections and then the actions of the next Congress not to mention the actions of the Obama administration in 2011 and 2012.

Nancy K

I'm a Democrat and I live in California and goodness knows we have a few illegals in this state, but I am completely against what Arizona is doing and if my party goes down because of it, so be it.
I believe that the Federal Government is in charge of our borders and it is the Federal Government that needs to make and inforce emigration laws.
I don't see the good people of Arizona going after the businesses of those employing illegals or even the individuals who hire illegals to clean their houses, mow their yards, and take care of their kids.
Illegals are here because we love cheap labor and we don't like to do the dirty work ourselves.
I also feel our borders need to be secure and we definitly need an emigration policy but I hate to see my country turn into a witch hunt of illegals, which seems to be already happening in Utah.
There needs to be some type of amnesty program for those who have been in this country for a number of years, have a good work history and have not committed crimes. Also I feel that children who have been brought to this country by their parents, should qualify for amnesty and citizenchip.
I worked in Public Health for many years and I know the hardship and horrors that Arizona's decision is going to cause to children, parents and families. There has to be a better way.

Matthew

Clifford: "Immigration reform" never stops illegal immigration because we derive so much benefit from illegal immigration. A young, transitory workforce builds a lot of houses and cuts a lot of lawns.....for less than a legal one.

Economic externalities? Well, that's someone else's problem.

And so it goes.

Tyler

Deport them all?

Si, se puede!

Babak Makkinejad

MRW:

I agree with everthing you wrote.

In fact, the Japanese refused to upgrade factories sold to China and that is when they came to America.

The Americans did not care, they were going to be financiers of the world. You will find a ten thousand times as many graduates of MIT/CalTech/Stanford/Cornell/Berkeley/Illinois in the financial houses of the East and West Coasts of the United States than in the "old economy" states of the American Midwest working for engineering or manufacturing companies.

Their world was one in which US would be the "designer" of the world while the colored people of this planet would build to the Designer's specifications. What bonk; but a fool's paradise.

Yes, the economic elite sold US down river - starting with JFK. No doubt about it.

jerseycityjoan

I just saw another prediction that unemployment isn't expected to return to normal levels for another five years.

We don't have enough jobs for the people we have. It's unfortunate that neither political party is doing the obvious: putting a temporary halt to unnecessary legal immigration (e.g., temporary workers with bachelors degrees, brother-sister-parents, etc., etc.) and trying to get the illegals out of here.

I'm disgusted and dismayed by the whole situation.

There's millions of qualified Americans who are without jobs because our leaders sit on their hands and do nothing. And then some of these so-called leaders don't want to extend unemployment. Yet because we have a two-party system and both parties are guilty, the elections in November won't change much.

I've heard nothing to make me think Republican gains will change the status quo on this issue. We won't get amnesty with the Republicans but the current rotten and unfair situation will remain the same.

When will Americans demand to have their needs put first, as they should be?
No wonder the politicians think we're fools, because we're acting like fools.

Allen Thomson


> Deport them all?
> Si, se puede!

Since "all" is somewhere over 10,000,000, I think "¡No es posible!" is closer than "¡Si, se puede!" To repeat an earlier comment, numbers and logistics count. Not to mention the foreign relations fallout if we were ever mad enough to attempt such a thing.

I don't claim to have an answer, but mass round-ups and deportations to the tune of 10,000,000 people, some of whom have dependent children who are and always will be US citizens thanks to the 14th Amendment and Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution, sure isn't in the cards.


Tyler

Allen,

Truman ordered it before. All it takes is the will.

The kids are more than welcome to go with their parents.

And if some pointy headed liberal skulls get crushed along the way, so be it.

You want to protest against stormtroopers? By God, you'll get stormtroopers.

Fred

Babak,

The Japaneese have an industrial policy. The US has the Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers. The latter is run by John Engler, previously Governor of Michigan. He's been there the last 8 years, when America's manufacturing capabilities have been gutted by greed. He left office immediately after state tax cuts. Feel free to see how the Cato Instutute lauded them:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4374 (Taxes being the reason jobs were leaving, so they said) Michigan has turned into Capitalism and Manufacturing's promissed land, hasn't it? Perhaps when taxes are zero and the wage rate equal's China's some of those jobs will come back... Who needs manufacturing in the US anyway?.

Allen,

No don't deport them at all. Just send the bill for providing them health care and education for their children to the Mexican government. If the latter won't pay, tell them to feel free to raise taxes on the richest man on planent Earth, Carlos Slim.

Privatization sure worked for him.
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/10/billionaires-2010_Carlos-Slim-Helu-family_WYDJ.html

Allen Thomson


> All it takes is the will

I love that line.

One minute and 50 seconds into http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmCKJi3CKGE

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