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07 June 2010

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Patrick Lang

All

I note that J.Bamford is somewhere in France. I would pick St. Jean de Luz myself but the Ile de France will do.

I would hope that this is not an impostor. pl

Sidney O. Smith III

Dukar post raises some interesting questions.

The BBC documentary Dead in the Water does suggest a possible schism between the US Navy and US Air Force re: Israel.

However, as for the US taking out the Dukar in revenge for the attack ont the Liberty, a question surfaces after “Bamford” suggests that only "the top echelons of the U.S. Navy, CIA, NSA, Joint Chiefs of Staff” would know of the attack.

For decades afterwards, too many people who were part of this "top echelon" remained adamant, publicly, that the attack on the Liberty was premeditated and deliberate and the Liberty crew, as well as the American public, deserved a full scale Congressional investigation. To name a few:

Admirals Moorer and Arleigh Burke. Bobby Ray Inman. Dean Rusk. Richard Helms.

If the US Navy had exacted revenge, then I don’t think Admiral Moorer would have spent his last years chairing an independent investigation into the Liberty incident, recommending a Congressional investigation. And as Wiki reminds us:

"[Moorer"] served as the Chief of Naval Operations between 1967 and 1970, at the height of U.S. involvement in Vietnam. He also served as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1970 until 1974."
(end of quote).

Moorer would have known of a US revenge attack on the Liberty.

Plus McGonagle, who commanded the USS Liberty at the time of the attack, only broke his silence near the end of his life. If the Dukar revenge theory were true, I would think the opposite would have happened. Or McGonagle would have taken the silence to his grave. Some (not all) Liberty vets do not appreciate McGonagle because they believe he failed to a stand earlier. They believe he cut a deal with the “top echelon” of the USG about whom Bamford writes.

Finally there is this Bamford quote which seems intended to placate the USS Liberty vets and those in the USN and USM who are aligned with them. “Although the crew of the Liberty have long felt that they were forgotten, I have learned of a tantalizing U.S. Navy retaliation for the Israeli attack on the Liberty from U.S. intelligence sources.” So the ultimate intent of this article appears to be an attempt to justify why certain "top echelon" military leaders never took a stand. But again, if Moorer takes a stand, it becomes very difficult to absolve everyone else.

And besides, the Liberty vets are more interested in a Congressional hearing.

Other inconsistencies exist but that said, the Dukar-as-revenge theory warrants consideration and further investigation for those interested. And if it is true, then someone who is part of this "top echelon" needs to tell the Liberty vets as well as the American public, so both can respond accordingly.

Sidney O. Smith III

Wayne Madsen has something to do with the original Dakar essay:

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=10051

optimax

You're right, Col. and Sidney O. Smith,

Excerpt from Madsen:

"In June 1967, President Lyndon Johnson was planning on running for re-election. Knowing that making an issue of the Israeli attack on the Liberty would hurt his standing among deep-pocketed Jewish contributors to the Democratic Party, Johnson buried the incident."

Same as paragraph 6 from "Bamford's" post. If it's not Madsen then it's a plagarist. Probably copied verbatim but One para is enough for me.

The Twisted Genius

Cynthia,

There is a post on Slashdot from someone in Turkey concerning the banning of Google. This may be just a combination of bad telecommunication law and a narrow-minded, over zealous local official. This is just one Slashdot post and not any kind of authoritative explanation. We all know the internet is mostly lies and conspiracy theories... present forum excluded, of course.

"Unfortunately this kind of thing happens all the time, and the government cannot do anything about it. Even the president has criticized the ban last week, but it's all up to the courts.

According to Turkish law, *any* PA can ask for a preliminary injunction to ban *any* web site. The web site has to comply within a month, otherwise TK (which is the telecomunnication authority) will have to block the web site in question. Nobody (including prime minister, or the president) cannot stop the ban (unless the website complies).

So if a person from a small town complains about a web site (for example Youtube, or Blogger), and the PA for that town finds the case worthy, he/she request a court order for the ban. This has actually happened (Blogger was banned since some bloggers published world cup matches, and the local TV stations which bought WC rights have complained).

The Google ban comes from Youtube ban. Previously they only removed youtube.com from DNS servers, but people have installed alternate DNS servers, and all was fine. Now they decided to block based on server IP, which is probably shared with other Google services as well.

Anyways they are trying to amend the law, so that this kinds of bans will be restricted (not just any random PA in any random town), but the best would be abolishing the law altogether."

R Whitman

Is the J.Bamford contributor above the author of the Puzzle Palace and other books about the intelligence community. If so, it makes this information much more credible as he is reputed to be a very careful researcher.

William P. Fitzgerald III

Pat Lang,

Whatever the attack on the Liberty was, it was certainly not an accident. An accident would have entailed the Israelis firing into the air or at another target and unintentially hitting the ship. Another non accident was the shooting down of Iran Air 655, en route from Bandar Abbas to Dubai with over 250 souls on board by the USS Vincennes. Either case could be characterized as a mistake, mis-judgement, incompetence, enthusiasm, or deliberate policy. In the attack on the USS Liberty, the time period, different agencies involved, and the conduct of the operation lead directly to the conclusion that it was deliberate policy at high levels in the Israeli government.

It would be satisfying to know that the U.S. Navy had made Israel pay a large price for the attack, but I would say that I doubt that it happened. The Truthseeker article, referred by Sidney Smith, is identical to the J. Bamford post on the Dakar. That doesn't mean it's not so, but it seems doubtful.

WPFIII

Fred

"At the end of May 1999, a U.S.-Israeli search team, with the U.S. firm Nauticos as prime contractor, finally located the Dakar in 9500-feet of water between Cyprus and Crete. The Nauticos underwater robotic equipment used to find the Titanic was used to locate the Dakar. The Dakar was found on its original course..."

If this were true then where is the video footage?

"The actual story related to us is that the Dakar was hit by a lightweight acoustic homing air-dropped torpedo."

And the unnamed source? Again, where's that video evidence?

McGee

Colonel,

As I've posted here before I happen to know the pilot of the SRT that recorded the Israeli traffic. He understood enough Hebrew to know what he had overheard and demanded that the tapes be retained and forwarded immediately to Intel upon landing. He also later was privy to the translations and confirms everything that's you've stated. FYI went thru Holabird about a year before you did. Remember the Holabird Inn?

Stan Smith

Col. Lang's site has some topical discussion about Ernie's difficulties with the Navy League and his letter concerning it (best one that details his problems and our problems with the League!).

Also, a fascinating tale about the Israeli Navy's loss of the sub Dakar and also a certain "USS Poet". One problem with J. Bamburg's theory -- that USN sunk the Dakar in retaliation for the Liberty attack -- is that the same USN brass then allowed the Pueblo to sail a couple of months later unprotected. The brass, if they were clued in and knew all about the Liberty (and even acted vigorously on it's loss), wouldn't likely have then sacrificed another US ship willy-nilly. That the brass were aware Liberty and Pueblo carried crypto gear and possession of such was priceless to foreign powers of the time, was corroborated to me by Ward Boston. Ward told me a year or two before he died that his Court of Investigation "had considered" that the motive for the assault might have been to secretly capture crypto gear. Such analysis may or may not have made his report -- I don't know. Did anyone ever see it perchance?

S/F,
Gunboat Smith

jdledell

Pat - I found it interesting that the Brokkings Institute, of all places, produced an article about the Liberty.(h/t Steve Clemons). It sure calls for Israel to start being accountable for its behavior.

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2010/0608_uss_liberty_ebinger.aspx

WILL

The Attack on the USS Liberty: Lessons for U.S. National Security from the Brookings Institute !!!

Ken

Do a Google search on "Two incidents in the eastern Mediterranean" and you will find that the Dakar essay appears in various blogs. When the author is cited, it is Wayne Madsen, not J. Bamford.

Medicine Man

I wonder if the attack on the Liberty was something undertaken with the permission of the Israel government or if it was a rogue operation launched by their air force? If it were a rogue operation there would be some irony in President Johnson learning after the fact that the navy had settled accounts with Israel by sinking the Dakar.

James Bamford

Colonel Lang,

Just to let you know, the "J. Bamford" who posted to your site is not me. This is the first time I have ever posted to your site. Feel free to contact me in the future if you ever have any question about whether I have posted to your site.

Many thanks,
James Bamford

different clue

Congressional hearings would be the best way to get this information definitively and undeniably onto the record for possible
further action. But Congress is unlikely to hold hearings while enough of the principal survivors are still alive and able to testify. Of course, if there were a way to trick AIPAC into demanding such hearings, the House of Representatives might very well hold them. How to trick AIPAC into making such a demand?

What if Representative Elijah Cummings and that Representative from California whose name I forget and any other interested Representatives were to schedule informal hearings during their recess in a suitable rented hall? Or even in the Capitol Building if most suitable and feasible? And what if they were to invite every interested person to come and tell everything he or she saw or knows or remembers? And what if all media or at least CSPAN were invited to record for later broadcast?

Perhaps AIPAC would demand that "Israel's side of the story" also be represented. The Representatives could say, in all feigned innocence, that they really would like to do that; but the only way to be able to do that would be to have actual Congressional Hearings. Perhaps AIPAC would demand such hearings and the House of Representatives could give AIPAC the full formal Hearings on the Liberty before AIPAC fully understood what it had asked for.

(If you think this idea could have some actual merit and might even have a chance of being applied if it were sent along to people who could make such informal recess hearings happen, please feel free to do that. If, further, you actually think AIPAC might fall into such a trap if it were not forwarned, please feel free not to print this letter if you think sending it along but not printing it would possibly make an actual difference.

If, however, the suggestion is just too silly to try applying; then it could either be printed or not depending on whether it is worth printing or not.)

The beaver

Colonel

have you seen this one:

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2010/0608_uss_liberty_ebinger.aspx

It is ironic that the Israeli Defense forces attacked a flotilla of relief ships bound from Europe to Gaza in international waters in a manner all too similar to its assault against the USS Liberty also in international waters on June 8 forty-three years ago. It is even more tragic and a national disgrace that in the immediate aftermath of Memorial Day there is scant remembrance of the 34 crew members comprising naval officers, seamen, two marines and a civilian who were killed in the attack along with the 171 crew members who were wounded. While the official inquiries by both nations found the attack to be a case of mistaken identity of the Liberty, to this day there is a long record of distinguished officers and journalists who take strong exception to this view believing that the attack was deliberate. Indeed the attack on the Liberty is the only maritime incident in U.S. history where our military forces were killed that was never investigated by the Congress.

Charles I

What is telling to me is that 40+ years after this intentional crime, mooted to have unleashed vengeance of uncertain provenance, the tail has wagged the dog to the current sorry pass. Whatever the truth, a lot of Americans seem to have invested a lot in containing or ignoring it for a long time.

A recent thread touched on Israeli submarine mad-dog eschatology. On a long earlier thread I posted a cite to Noam Chomsky's The Fateful Triangle in which he quoted past Israeli leaders musing precisely about the wonderful paralyzing utility of such a stance vis a vis the US. As Nixon had with the USSR.

I sure hope the USN has the current Israeli sub force well targeted. And that Jonathan Pollard's evil twin isn't in charge of it.

The beaver

Ohlala !!!!! Israel is Indispensable to the US

http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/35688/indispensable/

Michael Oren, a 55-year-old U.S.-born historian of the modern Middle East and the author of two best-selling books, one on the 1967 Arab-Israeli war and another on the United States’ 200-year-old experience in the Middle East, renounced his U.S. citizenship at an emotional ceremony in Tel Aviv last May to become Israel’s ambassador to Washington.

JoeC

A strong statement on the USS Liberty and the recent IDF attack on the relief flotilla has been released by Charles Ebington, a Brookings Institution scholar at http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2010/0608_uss_liberty_ebinger.aspx
Steve Clemons at the Washington note posted this, commended Ebinger for his courage and wishes him good luck in holding back the storm that no doubt will hit him inside Brookings and out.

After Cordesman's piece are we maybe seeing an encouraging trend?

WILL

from the the Steve Clemons Washington Note Liberty Article on the Brookings Institute Post, the Comment Section:

"Let the survivors testify. Let me testify. Let former intelligence
officers testify that they received real-time Hebrew translations
of Israeli commanders instructing their pilots to sink "the
American ship".

Surely uncovering the truth about what happened to American
servicemen in a bloody attack is more important than
protecting Israel. And surely forty years is long enough to wait.

Ward Boston served as chief counsel to the Navy's Court of
Inquiry into the attack on USS Liberty and as a naval aviator in
World War II on the carrier Yorktown, and as an FBI agent prior
to his assignment to the Navy's Judge Advocates General Corps.
He is a graduate of the Law School of the College of William and
Mary, and a resident of Coronado, California."

Castellio

Okay, so there is a "J. Bamford" and a "James Bamford", and it is reasonable to believe that one hoped to be thought the latter...

willfull misinformation, suggesting that payback had been paid?

The Twisted Genius

Cynthia,

On 8 June you asked about Turkey banning Google. I tried to post this response, but it didn't get through. (I couldn't get any new posts on SST for near 48 hours.)

A comment from Turkey on Slashdot concerning the banning of Google said that it was nothing especially sinister... just a combination of bad telecommunication laws and a narrow-minded, over zealous local official's stupid decision. (Irony alert!) How could that possibly happen? Here's the explanation from Slashdot.

"As someone from Turkey threre's more to it:
Unfortunately this kind of thing happens all the time, and the government cannot do anything about it. Even the president has criticized the ban last week, but it's all up to the courts.
According to Turkish law, *any* PA can ask for a preliminary injunction to ban *any* web site. The web site has to comply within a month, otherwise TK (which is the telecomunnication authority) will have to block the web site in question. Nobody (including prime minister, or the president) cannot stop the ban (unless the website complies).
So if a person from a small town complains about a web site (for example Youtube, or Blogger), and the PA for that town finds the case worthy, he/she request a court order for the ban. This has actually happened (Blogger was banned since some bloggers published world cup matches, and the local TV stations which bought WC rights have complained).
The Google ban comes from Youtube ban. Previously they only removed youtube.com from DNS servers, but people have installed alternate DNS servers, and all was fine. Now they decided to block based on server IP, which is probably shared with other Google services as well.
Anyways they are trying to amend the law, so that this kinds of bans will be restricted (not just any random PA in any random town), but the best would be abolishing the law altogether."

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