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11 November 2009


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Patrick Lang


Angelo was undoubtedly "seconded" to the "Indian Staff Corps" from the "1st Goorkha Rifles." pl


Lieutenant Raymond Digby Angelo - 1st Gurkha Rifles - died of wounds - 30th November 1894.
Born at Jubbulpore 1st December 1864. Son of Lt-General John Anthony Angelo (Bengal Artillery). Served Zhob Valley 1884, Burma 1886 (medal and bar). With the Waziri-Afghan Boundary Commission 1894. Their camp near Inzar Kotal was attacked by Waziris 3rd November 1894 and he was shot in the chest. He died at Dera Ismail Khan 30th November.
Grave at Dera Ismail Khan - "To the Glory of God and in loving memory of Raymond Digby Angelo Lt and Adjt 1st Gurkha Rifles Youngest son of Lieut General J.A. Angelo. Died of wounds received in action at Wano, 30th Novr 1894 aged 29 years."

Per http://glosters.tripod.com/NWF97.htm


On the subject of British rule in India - how have empires always ruled? divide and conquer. British policy over the recent 350 years or so, reminds me of Shakespeare's Othello.
I feel it is my patriotic duty to say: F-- the British!

Perhaps they were good at manipulating the problems in the region (and still are) yet a closer look, I think, will highlight the imposed mass famine - and mass deaths as a result of what may be termed their "success". And perhaps that is success as they might define it. Maybe thats what you mean. hooray for khaki.

such methods may have allowed them to rule for 200 years, but from an American standpoint, such foolish and frankly evil methods can hardly be regarded as real success.
Reminds me of another play, "King Lear". Compare with the U.S. role in the development of an independent Philippines, as a distinction of America and American ideas from our dandy cousins. As an American, and one descended form the Asian Pacific part of the world, to hell with the British! perhaps tangental, but I felt a little provoked.

Patrick Lang


"with a bullet in his chest and blood in his mouth?" pl

William P. Fitzgerald III

What would have happened is to some an interesting question and to others immaterial. Since agreement on actual events is elusive, on hypothetical ones it seems tobe impossible. Since the discussion has touched on war memorials and then the battles at Ypres it leads me to the fruitless peace
efforts during late 1916 and early 1917. Had they been successful along the lines of the status quo ante bellum, the great question is, would the empires of Europe then descended into the revolutions that led to the Bolsheviks and,eventually the Fascists coming to power? That leads to other questions and speculation about the Second World War.

As for India, the British, rather than divide and conquer, conquered and united, and made modern India. That isn't to say that they didn't play the various rulers off against one another as they extended their control.




Mr. Kiracofe,

Interesting story about Ottoman’s being forewarned by their allies, the Germans, about the pending forcing of the straights. Indeed, shortly before the invasion, significant staff changes were made in the forces defending the Gallipoli Peninsula and the naval batteries on the Asian side of the Dardanelles, most significant of them appointing German General Liman von Sanders to head the Army defending the straight, along with many German field grade officers and technical advisers, especially artillery, engineer and naval. Mustafa Kemal, also at this time was appointed to lead 19.th Infantry Division, who was one of the rising and loyal staff officers of the Ottoman Army at the time.

However, it was impossible to hide such a grand naval and land invasion force gathering first in Egypt in the fall and winter of 1914-1915, and later on the east side of the Island of Limnos, no farther than 35 miles from the Turkish coast, all former Ottoman possessions still with significant Turkish populations. The conception of the operation is traced back to January 15, 1915 by C.E.W. Bean , Australian official historian of the campaign, relying on Churchill’s memoirs and “British Naval Operations”, Vol. II that:

“the attack on the straits by old battleships supported by a large army was
suggested on the 3rd of January, 1915, by Lord Fisher..”

…and in February 1915 the coastal batteries on the Asian side was bombarded by the British warships. So there was plenty of warning and human sources to forewarn an invasion with the aim of capturing Constantinopole, and to take the necessary measures to organise a defence, strengthen the command and control by the staff changes by inducing German personnel, and procure ammunition and supplies from Germany. The invasion was expected, with or without an indiscretion on the side of a diplomat. And the reasons the Gallipoli campaign failed are entirely in the domain of discussion about how badly it was conceived, planned, staffed and executed, not to mention many twists of fate that worked almost entirely against the invasion force.

Clifford Kiracofe


Thanks for your general overview. The issue I raised focused on the narrow question of bribery of certain Ottoman officials in sensitive command positions by the British (and possibly French). Unfortunately, my late friend is no longer available to query as to specifics. But his comment to me several decades ago noting bribery of commanders of sensitive positions (shore batteries etc) was interesting me.

This Wiki entry is tantalizing in this regard:

" A first proposal to attack Turkey had already been suggested by French Minister of Justice Aristide Briand in November 1914, but it was not supported. A suggestion by British Naval Intelligence (Room 39) to bribe the Turks over to the Allied side was not taken up."

I will say Churchill seemed quite enterprising in his rewriting of history and employed people as ghost writers to asssist. A late friend of mine knew one of the ghost writers.

Clifford Kiracofe

Kunuri, All,

After lunch at my home between classes I dug up some papers my late friend left me. In those papers is a written recollection of what he had heard mentioning the French diplomat Deville who was Minister at Athens. In conversation my friend had also mentioned d'Ormesson another French diplomat at Athens at one point.

The situation was the King of Greece had opted for neutrality in WWI and the Allies were trying to persuade him to support their side. The King's wife was the sister of the German Kaiser.

Deville had an audience with the King after the British had begun their expeditionary operations. Deville argues the British have bribed key commanders so it would be wise to support the Allies at this point. The King mentions this to his wife, who causes a cable to be sent to her brother warning him. As my friend recalls the story:

"A bout d'arguments le ministre devoila au Roi que les forts des Dardenelles allaient se rendre, que les commandants Turcs avaient ete soudoye et qu'il vallait beaucoup miuex por la Grece de sortir de sa reserve tant qu'il etait encore temps. Le Roi aurait rapporte cette conversation a sa femme quit aurait fait prevenir par telegramme son frere a Berlin, etc."

[My friend's recollections on this topic are written by him in French but he was not French.]

William R. Cumming

Post Script! Again to Mustafa suggest reading Morris Ekstein's "Rites of Spring-The Great War and the Birth of the Modern Age" (1989)!
The Cumming Clan (yes-Scottish Ancestry and raised Presbyterian)most Clan's tartans (and they really are a relatively recent development) have both a hunting and dress version as does the Cmming! Singularly the Black Watch has only the one version black or dark Navy Blue and Green. The Germans in the first WWI referred to the Scottish units as "The Ladies From Hell"!
Finally, almost 1.3 of modern India is now almost firmly under control of the Praxelites (communists) and the threat grows daily. The area of their control is central India running from North to South.

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