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18 October 2009

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Anthony

When they go around beheading people in daylight and waging suicide jihad I would say they are terrorists.

Jundullah IS a terrorist organisation.

jonst

To the Times, and the Post, for that matter, and most of the MSM, it is the METHOD of the attack that defines one. And the Times, and the MSM, decide, arbitrarily, what methods are kosher, so to speak, and what methods are not.

WILL

from NYT
two attacks
the first, clearly terrorist

"In one attack, a suicide bomber wearing a military uniform and an explosive belt entered a mosque where guard commanders were organizing a reconciliation meeting between local Sunni and Shiite Muslim leaders, according to the semi-official ILNA news service."

the second, No, from the limited info
"A second attack took place on a road in the same area when a car carrying a group of Guards members was attacked and bombed"

Turcopolier

Will

So, you agree with Jonst that the tactics of operations establish "terrorism?" We give people the Medal of Honor for suicidal valor. That is what "above and beyond the call of duty" really means. Civilians were killed? I wouldn't go there in search of an argument. Deliberate targeting of civilians in an attempt to change behavior through fear. That is terrorism. pl

PirateLaddie

I dealt with a few Baluch refugees from Iran while in Karachi (the largest Baluch city as well as the largest Pathan one -- since both groups are mainly villagers), many years back. While some are Sunni, more than a few are Shia -- many are "quietists" (to use a Christian metaphor), similar to Sufis.
Your comment about "defenders of the status quo" is on point. Since the Sovs left the scene, we seem to be increasingly of the "non boatus rockum" school, except in cases where we carry out full-scale attacks upon targets of opportunity.

jonst

Ah, I responded too quickly. I see the US govt has also declared this a "terrorist" act. They, the govt, are a bit more cynical about this than the MSM.

The MSM is influenced more by pseudo-aesthetic judgments. i.e. something is gallant, or not.

This kind of thinking is common the more one is removed from having to actually carry out acts of violence in the name of some cause. I think it fair to say that those more experienced with war---as a participant in war--not simply covering it, understand there is more ambiguity about these things than might at first meet the eye.

Governments tend to be influenced in these things by acts, and actors, that are effective in their attacks. i.e. if 'it' works, if it is painful and costly, it is more readily deemed a "terrorist act". And indeed, often it is. But often there is a gray area. i.e. one man's Wedding Reception, for instance, is another man's King David Hotel. Or another man's USS Liberty, for that matter.

Reks

Insurgents would be an appropriate term, yes?

On the other hand, most of us would not give much thought to characterizing any resistance to us in Iraq or Afghanistan as legitimate right? Even if civilians were not targeted they would be considered terrorists.

Turcopolier

pirate laddie

Aaaargh! Yes, there are Shia Baluch just as there are shia Kurds, but these Baluch must have been Sunni and not "quietists." pl

jonst

" Deliberate targeting of civilians". Yes, but as you know better than I Col, the devil is in the details.(Please note, I am not trying to be, nor, hopefully Col, am I being, pedantic here...sharing this insight with you, is, as they say in the law, 'bringing coals to Newcastle'. My goal here is to articulate what is inside my mind on this issue).

That said, is deliberately targeting the infrastructure of modern society, with an eye towards, making life difficult and fearful for the populace "targeting civilians in an attempt to change behavior through fear"? i.e. we bomb water purification plants in Serbia'? Or the old standby, Dresden et al?

Even if it would be deemed not to be terrorism, the targets of attack could surely be forgiven for thinking it such.

Babak Makkinejad

All:

Col. Sam Gardner (sic.?) has publicly observed that members of Jundullah have been captured with large amounts of hard-currency on them.

He further mentioned the videos left behind by them containing footage of an entire magazine of a Kalashnikov rifle being emptied into the head of a Revolutionary Guardsman.

The brother of Mr. Rigi, the leader of the Jundullah group, was married to a Shia woman from whom he had a son. The man killed his wife on the instructions of Mr. Rigi: "We are fighting the Shia". Murdering one’s wife is not about changing the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Mr. Wayne White, in a different context, has publicly stated that US was using dredges of Afghan society in the creation of the Mujahedeen forces to fight the Communist Government of Afghanistan. He stated: “We knew what we were doing.”

Given the tribal affiliations of the civilian victims, I think that there will be years of personal and tribal vendetta among the Baluch for several years. I believe Jundullah will be destroyed by the Baluch themselves – they have gone beyond the pale – in my opinion.

Kieran

Colonel, I am rather stunned by this comment. Do you really believe this was a 'terrorist attack' rather than attempt at provocation by proxy?

Turcopolier

All

My point is that these are just words. Words invested with meaning by the speakers and the partisans or enemies of any particular cause.

Words are used so deliberately today as weapons that they no longer have any objective content.

"Terrorist" is a good example. To the supporters of the Palestinians the Israelis are terrorists and of course the reverse is true.

As someone said here, for the those who have participated in large scale and purposeful violence, the actual deeds are often very ambiguous in their meaning even if not to the victims.

Kieran. I have no idea if we put them up to it.

Jonst. The USG is calling this terrorism because it wants a favorable environment for discussions with Teheran.

Babak. I think the word you were looking for is "dregs." Alas, one man's drags are another man's raw material.

All. Did someone refer these Pasdaran as "war heros?" wow! pl

Kieran

Colonel, your point about the use of language is spot on.

As to the attack, it is difficult for me to understand a sophisticated attack like this, guided by excellent intel clearly, outside the context of ongoing US, Israeli, and other Western intelligence operations.

Seymour Hersh reported last year that the Bush administration had dramatically increased the budget for covert ops in Iran, including supporting Jundullah.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh

How does this look in Tehran?

N. M. Salamon

I find the discussion logical. I would presume that Mr. Obama should rescind the Bush order/allocation [$ 400 million] for the destabilization of IRan, to make the continous talks with Iran more promising.
It is not only the USA/UK which comes under Irani suspicion with regard to the foreign currency, for there are others just as anxcious for regime change, most obviously, Israel.

I would much prefer that covert operations vs. Iran stop, lest we lead to unknowable consequences due to military action involving Iran. This desire does not include attempts at spying, a most natural behavoir pattern of every Sovereign.

Thomas

Who put them up to it? How about the 21st century Jacobins using a private entity? This would help them derail the current nuclear neogotiations between US and Iran.
It seems that violent organiztions, whether terrorist or insurgent, need a source of funding which could be from a state or a wealthy individual(s). Whether the funder believes in the cause or not, he becomes a controling factor in the beneficary's action. It is claimed that Rigi has been interviewed by VOA-Persian. This an interesting story to be played out.

mac nayeri

Many Iranians are opposed to the governing system. This is a fact not subject to reasonable dispute. But I do believe most Iranians do think of the soldiers who defended the country during the war as heroes - whether regular army, or the “pasdaran.”
Clearly, even some of the best informed sources in the West fail to appreciate the indelible impact of the war on Iran’s international posture and national psyche. I know we have not forgotten from our own experiences that the soldiers in the trenches (rice paddies) have, with rare exception, clean hands. Irony……

N. M. Salamon

Of course, the real terrorists have resided in Wall Stree and the City [London UK] - about 1 million people managed to wreck the whole world's economy. Notable the lack of remorse: Goldman bonus pool for approx 25000 emplyees of some 23 billion dollars is larger than total government spending by all levels in Utah for 2009 for 2.500.000 citizens:

http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/17/who-is-carlos-slim/#more-5242
go down on comments to Hillbilly Daryl based on gov data [many interesting data there] It is n otable that without the TAXPAYERS'S MONEY [13 billion] via AIG, there would be no Goldman!

Patrick Lang

MN

Since I am not Iranian I don't feel anything good about them. pl

par4

It is the Right of The People... The first thing I thought of was when George W. mentioned the peace of '45 one time. I think our govt. thinks it is the only one that can redraw the political map of the world.

Fred

Wall Street and the London financial district don't employee 1 million people; those that are employed there in the creative end of finance have had plenty of help over many, many years dismantling regulatory safeguards and creating an ideology of 'free market' finance.

PirateLaddie

Sunni? Probably, yes -- but haven't we been taught to be wary of those quiet, contemplative types? Remember the USMC tales of the amok among our Malay brethren about a century ago....

Turcopolier

pirate, etc.

marines? marines? The jarheads were all on Samar, their boats, or in the Caribbean.

The Army fought the Moros on Mindanao and in the Sulu Archipelago.

The Moros would wind a little net around their testicles and then twist it so tight that they would go mad with the pain and charge right at you. They called this going 'juramentado," Yes Muslims, that means "Shahid."

The service revolver in use, the .45 long case
Colt would not knock them down before they reached you. For this purpose, the .45 ACP round was created. pl

ISL

Once the critical bogeyman was communists, now it is terrorists, which seems code for whoever the powers that be feel needs to be the guiding fear (so business as usual can proceed).

Although I personally feel insulted by such simplistic propaganda efforts by media/govt, clearly their success at justifying so many things (e.g., Patriot act, or loss of freedom even in countries like Holland which did not have any attacks) suggests they work. Yet aside from the FOX crowd, it seems to have worn a bit thin.

I expect a new boogieman man to infest our language any day now to justify - - - - (fill in the blank).

PirateLaddie

Yeah, they were USMC stories, but the reality was at the USArmy level. Their testicles weren't the only things that got wound up -- they used to tightly wrap their arms & legs, even around their guts, to reduce the effect of knives & incoming rounds (understand some still do this in the jungles north of Zamboanga) -- I had forgotten about the ACP, you're right, of course.

Turcopolier

PL

Ah, A US Marine!

Well, we are dealing with my family's history here.

Our dad, mine and Maureen's, used to tell the story of the old sergeant major in his regiment (26th Cavalry, Phillipine Scouts) who had won the Medal of Honor in 1910 when a trooper. His troop had to capture a Moro stockaded village. Dismounted, they had nothing but carbines and pistols. This soldier volunteered to have them throw him over the wall. He was a stunted little man. They did that. He went over with a pistol in each hand. After a few seconds of shooting inside, the gate opened slowly, and they charged in over his prostrate body. Dad often drank with him in bars in Baguio. Camp John Hay was the home station for the 26th. pl

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