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12 August 2009

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Patrick Lang

GZB

It was not a "mistake." It was quite deliberate, ordered by higher authority and they persisted in doing it for hours.

Perhaps by "mistake" you mean a moral lapse. That it was.

We have been at war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The civilians we killed were not killed deliberately. When there were incidents like that, the culprits were put on trial for their crimes.

This is quite different The Israeli armed forces deliberately attacked our ship. We were not a party to your war. Quite the opposite. you attacked our ship and killed our people. Who will you put on trial? pl

Trent

You have to understand the contempt Israelis have for Americans. Dissenting American Jews can make aliyah or shut up. American goyim can write checks and keep the UN votes and vetoes coming.

Ron

The mode of operation for the apologists is always the same. I feel like I went to one of their schools. What will it be next? Long commentaries that mean nothing, an avid attempt to change the subject, or will it be name calling? I have seen most of it. Do you have anything new??

Sidney O. Smith III

WRC

Benjamin Disraeli once wrote: “Justice is Truth in Action”.

Those words should act as a guiding light to shine on the Liberty incident, imo. And as you well know, there is no statute of limitations for murder nor should there be.

As Rear Admiral Staring and others have pointed out, the USN has stated that the original NCOI constitutes the entire investigation of the Liberty incident. One week.

And certainly probable cause exists that the original NCOI was flawed; in other words the evidence is overwhelming that the Record includes irregularities and inequities that cut against our notion of fundamental fairness.

So once that standard is met --particularly as defined by Senator Webb -- then the case should be reopened.

A civilian analogy perhaps (admittedly I need to think it through a little more) is the murder of some innocent civil rights workers in Mississippi back in the 60’s. Or for that matter in Michigan (just check out what happened to Malcolm X father in the liberated North).

Suppose, just suppose, the accused are politically connected and they put the heat on the mayor who needs their support for reelection. The mayor leans on the local district attorney to deep-six the case, which he or she does through an abbreviated investigation and via a “no bill” in grand jury.

It is then proven that the Record includes irregularities and inequities. At that point, I believe a district attorney is obligated to re-examine and re-open the case.

It has happened, and I have known some very good district attorneys and they would do such. (In the military world that is exactly what Admiral Staring has attempted to accomplish, rather heroically, imo.)

And, if I recall, the good State of Mississippi recently prosecuted some old klansman (aka ethnic nationalist?) recently for crimes that took place in the 1960’s, under a similar fact pattern.

I also would like to mention ABA informal opinion 1210. It states, “there is a duty on the part of a lawyer as a good citizen to aid in the enforcement of criminal laws, ... to report unprivileged knowledge of criminal conduct to the appropriate authorities.” (Surely a similar rationale exist in the UCMJ, codified in regard to following unlawful orders).

I simply am trying to report unprivileged knowledge of criminal conduct to the appropriate authorities. It is consistent with Disraeli’s notion that justice is truth in action.

Fred
Senator Webb set the standard of review in his proposed legislation. Your statistical evidence about prisons is a non sequitur, imo.

If Senator Webb publicly states that the original NCOI contains no irregularities because too many people are in prison, then I am glad I never attended Georgetown.

Ken

GZB

It was a surprise attack on a neutral U.S. naval vessel in international waters -- no shots fired over the bow or other type warning was issued to the ship to leave the area or risk attack. There were no exigent circumstances, IDF high-command had plenty of time and opportunity to establish positive identification the ship, evaluate the situation and make a decision -- they chose to mount a surprise combined air and sea attack that lasted over one hour.

As Commander David Lewis (Liberty's Research Operations Officer) once said: "If it was a mistake, it was the best planned mistake I ever heard of."

KJH

Phillip F Tourney

Lets please look at the facts. Israel had ID our ship many hours before they decided to sink us or was it many months in advance we were set up?
What we do know is that Israel MURDERD 34 Americans wounding 174 others on the high seas and tried to murder the rest of the crew and leave no trace that Israel did the MURDERING.Israel wanted to blame it on an Arab State. They all most got by with it in fact they did get by with it because our bought and paid for congress "ALLA" AIPAC, ADL,has kept this war crime hidden from the AMERICAN public.They shot our only two life rafts out of the water for GODS sake and took one aboard there PT boats now that is just flat out a filthy crime. No one should be able to get by with MURDERING AMERICANS EVER not even ISRAEL. If this case is so easy to explain how come congress runs away from it like RATS runnig from a sinking ship?I can tell you why they are covering up FLUNKYS for ISRAEL and the good ole USA.Get mad America before it is too late if it is not already.If the public gets so mad about health care as they are.They better get mad about Americans being MURDERED in cold blood we could take this country back in days. No more free rides for Israel no more money no more arms no more any thing peroid. God bless America and all of our fighting men and women boy do we need it now more than any time in our short history they are fighting wars for Israel and don"t have a clue .We must stop our PASSIONATE ATTACHMENT in favor of Israel NOW!!
AMERICA comes FIRST before any country that includes ISRAEL the MURDERS of my friends and mates.
Phillip F Tourney
USS Liberty Survivor
Three Time President
USS Liberty Veterans

wisedup

as regards the reason for the attack on the USS Liberty, consider this link.
"It is widely reported that Israel had two (atomic) bombs in 1967, and that Prime Minister Eshkol ordered them armed in Israel's first nuclear alert during the Six-Day War."
Taken from http://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/
If the Isrealis had wanted to use the weapons then it would certainly make sense to deny Pres. Johnston the "embarrassment" of ordering the Isrealis to stop. If the USS Liberty was seen by the Isrealis as their weakest intel link then eliminating the leak would make sense -- to hell with how many US military died.

Serving Patriot

Besides the outrage of the attack, the appearance of rushed cover-up in the service of domestic (American) politics, one also has to wonder exactly what Israel was protecting when it ordered the attack on the Liberty?

There have been many theories over the years (e.g., killing of Egyptian POWs, plans to invade Golan, etc). But I wonder if the attack had more to do with masking Israel's arming of newly built nuclear devices? Michael Karpin passes on this rumor in his book The Bomb in the Basement, and makes a convincing case that Israel had built nuclear weapons by the eve of the Six Day War. (And at the same time, the U.S. had just concluded that Israel did not have the bomb and was not about to get it.
No matter the underlying reason, the attack was unprovoked and the justice due has been and continues to be denied.

Without question, the Liberty crew were victims of "big power" politics - then and now. Politics at the highest level of the US Government as demonstrated by the Presidential decision little more than a year later to "sell" F-4 Phantoms to the IDF. The man who penciled the F-4 deal with Israel? Paul Warnke, who was an Undersecretary of the Navy in June 1967 and later undersecretary of defense. Warnke attempted to condition the F-4 transfer on Israel's accession to the NPT and opening strategic weapon development sites to US inspection. Not surprisingly, he was overruled by the White House (after Rabin activated the Lobby) and Israel got the planes.

(Karpin's account of the Six Day War, the F-4 sale and its aftermath is quite a read -- one I encourage all to take the time to do.)

One has to wonder what the response would be to an Iranian attack upon a U.S. naval auxiliary? Even in a time of war with its neighbor. Oh yeah, I think we know what happens.

SP

Fred

Sidney,

I should have been more clear in my post. The statistical evidence about prisons is directly quoted off the Senator's website.

http://webb.senate.gov/email/criminaljusticereform.html

There may be a 'standard of review' but there is no mention of the USS Liberty and my opinion is that the Senator would not use this commission to review that incident.

McGee

Ron,

I can ask and get back to you. My guess would be yes. He's currently undergoing medical treatment so don't want to bother him right now, but should be able to get an answer within a week or two. Send your email address to me at johanmcgee@yahoo.com

McGee

Viet Vet

WRC, as you have a company that claims to be in the Homeland Security business, I distrust you already. The innocents in this story were the American sailors who died on the Liberty. I'm a former military intelligence analyst and from the Liberty to small site on a hillside in Laos where 18 Air Force guys died, this country has a bad habit of leaving guys like me in the wind every time something like the Liberty tragedy happens.

What I want to know is, who are you really working for? And what's in it for you to dismiss this terrible event as if it didn't happen. We sent those boys into harms way. Those that didn't die were told to keep their mouths shut. That's not America. We're better than that.

Sidney O. Smith III

Hi Fred
I agree with you.

Hence the notion of a rider or new legislation. I simply am raising the idea that Senator Webb should apply the same standard of review that he incorporates into his proposed legislation to the USS Liberty incident.

If he did, then at long last, our nation could redress a horrendous injustice -- one that has had enormous repercussions on our society and one that is contributing to the ever accelerating fragmentation of our country. And yes, I do believe the deep sixing of this injustice is a proximate cause of a disastrous foreign policy that is ripping our nation apart.

However, sad to say, if Webb did apply the same standard that he is now advocating so strongly to the USS Liberty incident, evidence indicates he does not score very high as an officer of the court when he was Secretary of the Navy, at least from what I can tell so far.

Webb convicts himself, basically.

Generally speaking, those elected officials and those in supervisory positions who participate in the ongoing code of silence do so out of political ambition. But at what price to our nation?

With that in mind, and unfortunately, when it comes to the USS Liberty, nothing suggests that Senator Webb is part of the tradition of Admirals Staring, Moorer and Hill. Countless others as well.

Senator Webb wrote that he likes to walk through National Arlington Cemetery. I applaud that decision. But I hope this war hero walks by the burial plots of those who died on USS Liberty and now lie in that sacred ground. And I hope he goes by the cemetery plot of George Marshall and while thinking of the USS Liberty incident, ask himself, “What would George Marshall do?”.

Sid

Ron

May I make a suggestion to those who are not up to speed on this? The newest book "Attack on the USS Liberty" by James Scott can
be found on Amazon.com.
James and his father John have been interviewed several times on this subject. Eyewitness reports are used in this book and James's father John was an officer aboard the Liberty during the attack. I know he was there as I worked for him at times. I was there also, I am a survivor and the man in charge of the body recovery and identification.

jdledell

GZB - This has nothing to do with Jews per se. Hell, I'm one myself. If you look at the evidence in the Liberty case it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY this was a mistake on Israel's part. The US was not a participant in the war - we were not Israel's enemy - our ship was in International waters - it appears to be a deliberate act of war by Israel against the US!!!!That is what makes this a big deal.

Sidney O. Smith III

Jdledell

Thank you very much for your remarks.

It is vitally important, imo, that as many other Americans as possible know about people such as yourself and Rocky Sturman who is a USS Liberty survivor, vice president of the USS Liberty Vets Association, and Jewish American.

Rocky has worn a Star of David when he gives interviews. I call it America’s Star of David.

And in my opinion, the USS Liberty, America’s Star of David, and the Touro Covenant are all one in the same.

When Jewish Americans start promoting the Liberty cause, then the odds of extremist voices trying to take over the narrative decrease dramatically. And the chance of justice increases.

So please persuade Phil Weiss, Richard Silverstein, and/or Stephen Walt to examine the evidence and take a stand. And again, many thanks.
Sid

William P. Fitzgerald III


Sid,

Having just finished "The Attack on the Liberty" by James Scott, I have a few observations pertinent (I hope) to the discussion. I should like to refer to the noble quest to get a congressional investigation and the reluctance of congress to initiate one. I was struck by the passages in chapter 2 which illustrated the influence of the Israeli Lobby on the eve of the Six Day War. They were able to mobilize their supporters, to a degree that other organizations can only dream of emulating. That ability to organize has not waned over the years since. So, I reluctantly conclude that there won't be an investigation and that Senator Webb won't try to intiate one. The reason being that "The Lobby" has the weapon that places politicians in a state of abject terror. It can prevent virtually anyone from being re-elected and has demonstrated that ability.

As for the court of inquiry, as everyone seems to agree, it was would have been laughable if this were a laughing matter. It was set up to fail and, when it didn't sufficiently fail, was helped along to that end. Most egregious were the deliberate lies and falsifications used to support unsupportable conclusions. I have nothing to say about the Israelis. They are what they are and do what they do. The real question is, why do we put up with it? Oops, I think I answered that in the first paragraph.

Finally, and, on the subject of naval inquiries and lies, we have the shooting down of Iran Air 655 by the USS Vincennes. Proving that what goes around comes around, that act was followed 5 months later by the explosion of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie.

Cheers,

WPFIII


p

Patrick Lang

WPF

I have reluctantly reached the same conclusion. There is something called "3 o'clock in the morning courage." Not everyone has it.

Either that, or he knows something that we do not. pl

johnny

To the person wondering why this happened. It is literally a disgrace to this country.

The United States of America conspired with Israel in this attack, the White House was aware of the attack within minutes but LBJ called rescue fighters off twice. They both wanted to bring the United States into the 6 day war, which was an Israeli land grab, and turn it into a US and Israeli land grab.

18 hours our boys were left to die, resulting in 34 deaths and 171 injuries. Disgusting.

The parasitic state of Israel must be destroyed.

As you know, Netanyahu state that Israeli benefited from 9/11. Funny how Israel always benefits from the world's tragedies. JFK wanted a nuclear free mid east, he was assassinated and LBJ enacted the policy of Israeli nuclear ambiguity as well as attacking his own men for the benefit of the Israelis. Truly disgusting.

Sam Will

http://newhk.blogspot.com/2009/01/us-navy-had-its-revenge-in-1968-for.html

http://newhk.blogspot.com/2009/06/uss-liberty-sad-anniversary.html

Fred

Sam Will,

That propaganda got posted here at least once before. Once again, where's all the video evidence of the Dakar supposedly filmed "...At the end of May 1999, a U.S.-Israeli search team, with the U.S. firm Nauticos as prime contractor..."

Once again, any posting or public documentation other than the 1 blog you link too? Somebody supposedly paid millions to use deep diving submersibles to find this sub and a third rate rightwinger's blog is the only reference. They didn't even bother to put out a video?

Patrick Lang

Sam Will

I checked on the Dakar thing at very high levels in the US Navy at that time. the answer is no. Retribution was made but not with that. pl

William R. Cumming

Well somehow missed the thread that followed my various comments. So here goes!

First the investigation of the USS Liberty incident never should have been left solely to the NAVY. Second, Senator James Webb as a former Secretary of the Navy has a direct conflict of interest on this one. What did he do about the Liberty incident when Secretary?
Third confusing the domestic criminal justice system with the Liberty investigation or lack thereof is mixing apples and oranges and detrimental to both. Also, just make Israel coming clean of the Liberty attack a condition of Pollard's release and probably not the only condition.
What is the standard protocol for SIGINT ships in International Waters and are they allowed to be armed and shoot back or are they designed to be sacrificial lambs to US policy if killed or captured? In other words did the Liberty change US policy in any way with respect to any issue?

Good post SoS! Like the identity of DEEP THROAT that I was hoping to find out before I died I hope your dreams of justice for the Liberty and its crew succeeds. A worthy cause.

William R. Cumming

More! Perhaps I should also have pointed out that Senator Webb has now had 4 years in the Senate to look into the Liberty history and has not.

Viet Viet! Distrust is probably healthy in today's America. But I am not in the Homeland Security business but run my own nonprofit think tank. Actually I advocated against the use of the term "Homeland" when DoD started to use it (the Defense Science Board) and advocated use of the term "Civil Security" but the smart goppeldangers in DoD knew that they would be less likely to get their "cut" of the swag if "civil Security" had been utilized. As it is probably less than 100 people in the use can accurately distinguish between "Homeland Defense" the DoD terminology and "Homeland Securit" the primarily DHS terminology.
Disclosure: I was once paid as a 4th tier contract consultant by the S&T Directorate in a contract with TASC for two days of input on RDD [Radiological Dispersal Devices] and I was probably the least distinguished member of the panel review the problem and policies. That study was open source but to the best of my information was later classified not by DHS but by DOE. IMO RDDs are not nearly the threat of an actual device being exploded in a major city of the West.

Sidney O. Smith III

Sorry, Sid, this essay, while well-intended, needs a bit of a rewrite. Since you posted this, our criminal justice system has deteriorated even further than you suggested. We now live in Surveillance State in which the 4th Amendment has been blown to smithereens and no one give a damn. But just wait until JSOC takes over the joysticks of the drones flying over America.

After reading the first couple of paragraphs, I got the sense your heart was still with prosecutors and the State when you wrote this. Sure, there are good people who work for the State but many of them are simply unaware.
But I still am with you about Born Fighting™. He sold out. If he had taken a stand as a national politician – or as he likes to call himself, a rough and tumble statesman – then he very well could have put a stop to the buildup of war propaganda to attack Iran and he could have saved countless lives. Proximate causation is a strange thing, no?

‘Tis a pity born fighting didn’t take a stand, one way or the other. Silence seems to suggest personal ambition over the welfare of the American people. If he had just taken a position, one way or the other, he could have ended the controversy surrounding the incident. He was in a position to know the truth as Sec of the Navy. And history would have remembered him.

Since he didn’t, like you, I do kinda’ wonder about a guy who went to Georgetown law school and then claims he is only interested in dipping a little skoal and going turkey hunting with the boys in sw Virginia. Something isn’t ringing true, although nothing wrong with Georgetown law school and leading a good urban life. ( I hate driving, so I can understand living in a place like DC, but I admit it, plus I have shopped at a Dollar General in the country and enjoyed that too; the woman at the cash register calls everyone “honey” ).

And, my God, how long does a person last walking around Anyplace, USA with a t-shirt that says, “Born Fighting” on it in big letters? It would only be a matter of time before someone would see him walking down the street and then say, “You wanna’ bet?” Guaranteed. There a lot of crazy people out there who don’t give a damn. Maybe he can get away with it at Georgetown law school, maybe CastleRock productions, but I don’t see it happening anywhere else. Much of this is just common sense.

But, yep, old born fighting potentially could have saved the USA if he had stood tall and played the role of a rough and tumble statesman. People would have noticed and he would have richly deserved all the accolades.

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