America's criminal justice system has deteriorated to the point that it is a national disgrace. Its irregularities and inequities cut against the notion that we are a society founded on fundamental fairness.
I believe that it is time to bring together the best minds in America to confer, report, and make concrete recommendations about how we can reform the process. Senator Jim Webb, The National Criminal Justice Commission Act of 2009
Excellent words from the good senator. And if Senator Webb from Virginia truly wants to expose “irregularities and inequities” that cut against our notion of “fundamental fairness”, then he need go no further than the Record of Proceedings of the Navy Court of Inquiry (NCOI) into the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967.
Two days after the attack, on June 10, Admiral John S. McCain, Jr, then the Commander-in-Chief, US Naval Forces, Europe, headquartered in London, England appointed this Navy Court of Inquiry, with Admiral Isaac Kidd presiding and Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, USN, as the senior legal counsel. And at the initial convening of the Court in London, Admiral McCain then ordered that it conduct and complete the proceedings in one week -- an abbreviated time that Rear Admiral Merlin Staring later described as “patently unusual and unreasonable”.
Yes, one week. As anyone familiar with our criminal justice system can tell you -- and certainly Senator Webb would agree -- you cannot adequately investigate a barroom brawl in Mobile, Alabama in one week, much less a repeated and coordinated military attack that took place at sea and left 34 men slaughtered, at least 171 wounded, and an essentially unarmed spy ship dead in the (international) water.
One week. Good grief. Ward Boston later claimed that he and Admiral Kidd disagreed with Admiral McCain’s order to complete the NCOI in one week. In 2003, he signed an affidavit in which he stated that both he and Admiral Kidd had estimated that “a proper Court of Inquiry into an attack of this magnitude would take at least six months to conduct.” Common sense would appear to agree wholeheartedly.
And for those, along with Senator Webb, who are genuinely concerned that we remain a society “founded upon fundamental fairness”, take a few minutes and read two evidentiary essays that focus on this Navy Court of Inquiry. Both are written by USN vet Ken Halliwell, certainly one of the world’s leading forensic experts on the attack on the Liberty.
For any of you who just raised eyebrows about Ken Halliwell’s credentials, consider the following: Halliwell is the first person who presented overwhelming evidence that Jay Cristol relied upon fake photographs to argue the attack on the Liberty was one of mistaken identity. (Just click and then scroll down to the Gun Camera Photo Fraud Series).
So one can safely describe Ken Halliwell as a leading forensic expert. And he has penned an essay in which the title alone fully reveals what Senator Webb so eloquently termed “irregularities and inequities”. It reads, “The Navy Court of Inquiry: Evidence of Negligence”. And the title of Halliwell’s second recommended essay hits the mark as well, 'Smoking Gun' for Claims of NCOI Testimony Tampering.
Halliwell has authored other evidentiary essays, and they are all highly recommended. But, for our purposes, reading just these two essays will make it much easier for you to decide if you agree with the recurring VFW Resolution that calls for a Congressional investigation into the attack on the Liberty.
For starters, and speaking more specifically of what Senator Webb refers to as “inequities” in the administration of justice, one quote by Halliwell illustrates Senator Webb’s point so well that it leaps right off the computer monitor and, therefore, simply must be highlighted. Halliwell contrasted the Record of Proceedings of the NCOI for the Liberty with that of the USS Pueblo -- the US Navy spy ship captured by North Koreans roughly 7 months after the Israeli attack on the Liberty. Halliwell’s draws the distinction:
“Thus, about 19 hours of testimony was heard from 17 witnesses during two days of testimony on June 13 or 14, and 15. Combining this with six hours of testimony from two witnesses heard on June 10 and 16,[2] the total is 25 hours of testimony from 19 witnesses. This pales in comparison with similar matters subject to NCOI hearings; e.g., the NCOI for the USS Pueblo incident heard over 200 hours of testimony from 104 witnesses.”
And it is indisputable that the same legal standard applied to both NCOI’s. As Halliwell writes: "The JAG Manual provides that the responsibility of Counsel for the Court is to exploit all practicable sources of information and to bring out all facts in an impartial manner without regard to the favorable or unfavorable effect on persons concerned."
Surely Senator Webb, as a 1975 graduate of Georgetown Law School, is aware of this glaring discrepancy or “inequity” between the two NCOI’s, -- one that certainly raises, at a minimum, a rebuttal presumption that the NCOI for the Liberty violated well-established principles of “fundamental fairness”. And certainly Senator Webb, as an officer of the court, is aware that to overcome such a presumption, the burden is now on those who acquiesced to the ongoing code of silence -- an appalling silence that has suggested that the NCOI for the Liberty was not a corrupt investigation but, instead, complied with the law to the same extent and in equal measure to the NCOI for the Pueblo.
So continuing to adhere to Senator Webb’s own rationale, let’s move to the next step and examine not only “inequities” but also “irregularities” that suggest partiality to (very) concerned persons. And in this regard, the wording from the recurring VFW Resolution on the USS Liberty itself documents one of the most glaring “irregularities” in the history of American jurisprudence, civilian or military, bar none:
WHEREAS, the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty is the only such naval incident to have never been investigated by Congress….
Applying Senator Webb’s own level of judicial scrutiny, one can conclude that the lack of a Congressional investigation constitutes a per se violation. It is the only time a Congressional investigation into such a naval incident has not taken place, period. So, once again, the burden shifts to those who want to argue that the lack of a Congressional hearing was indeed consistent with the legal standards of the time (or anytime in American history for that matter). In other words, they must successfully argue that the lack of a Congressional hearing satisfies all requirements that constitute what Senator Webb has defined as “fundamental fairness”.
As for more specific “irregularities” in the Record of Proceedings itself, Halliwell indicates that crucial testimony of some of the Liberty vets was left out. One glaring omission from the Record is that of Liberty survivor Lloyd Painter who later went on to a distinguished career as a US Secret Service agent. According to Painter (watch Dead in the Water, available for free online viewing, at minute 55), during the NCOI, he testified about Commander McGonagle’s condition (he blacked out from injuries sustained during the attack), the Israeli pilots firing armored piercing projectiles at the Liberty as well as his observation that the Israeli Motor Torpedo Boats machine-gunned life rafts floating astern of the ship. None of this testimony made it into the Record.
Additionally, the Record reflects other “irregularities”. Chief Engineer George Golden who actually took over command of the ship after McGonagle blacked out, stated that Admiral Isaac Kidd, whom McCain appointed president of the court, intentionally kept Golden out of the proceedings. According to George Golden in Dead in the Water, “I got so peeved off I couldn’t see straight”.
And then, to completely slam shut any hope of “fundamental fairness”, according to retired Secret Service Agent Painter and others, various high ranking Navy officers threatened the Liberty crew with court-martial if they discussed the attack at all.
Fundamentally fair? You decide. But certainly if we apply the standard of judicial review suggested in Webb’s pending legislation, this evidence alone reaches a threshold that, again, shifts the burden to those defending the NCOI and who claim “Case Closed”. To overcome the presumption of a flawed investigation, the defenders of the NCOI must establish with clear and convincing evidence that it was a thorough and impartial proceeding and devoid of “irregularities” and “inequities.”
And the bar to overcome this presumption of a flawed investigation, for all intents and purposes, is insurmountable because of the work of one heroic American -- Rear Admiral Merlin Staring. This former Judge Advocate General of the Navy, in an extraordinarily detailed June 2005 letter to the Secretary of the Navy, claimed that the Record of the Proceedings was completely unreliable, in large measure because of the abbreviated and highly unusual one week timeframe in which Admiral McCain ordered it completed. In other words, this man who, in 1972, became the highest ranking JAG officer and lawyer in the entire US Navy, concluded that the NCOI was an absolute disgrace and refused to partake in a cover-up.
Rear Admiral Staring did much more than address the profound “irregularities and inequities” of the NCOI for the Liberty in a June 2005 letter to the Secretary of Navy. In June, 1967, then Captain Merlin Staring, JAGC, USN was the senior Navy Judge Advocate General’s Corps officer on Admiral McCain’s staff in London. At the completion of the Court of Inquiry into the attack on the Liberty, Admiral McCain requested that Captain Staring review the Record of the Proceedings. As Staring points out in the 2005 letter, such a request was “a normal and anticipated procedure whereby the Convening Authority [Admiral McCain] would have available a legal opinion and recommendations concerning the Inquiry proceeding and its results…”
Captain Staring never endorsed the Record or its findings. After Captain Staring reviewed it for several hours during the afternoon and evening of June 17 and morning of June 18, Admiral McCain sent word to Captain Staring, wanting to know how much longer it would take for him to finish the review. Captain Staring then raised his genuine concerns, namely that the Record contained many clerical errors and that he “had not yet been able to find, in the parts of the record that he had so far reviewed, testimony or other evidence to support some of the Court's stated findings….”
At that point, Admiral McCain never let him finish the review. Captain Staring was asked to surrender the Record, which he did. Then, as Staring describes in the 2005 letter, Admiral McCain immediately “endorsed the record forward, addressed to the Judge Advocate General of the Navy as required by the Navy's investigative procedures…”
In other words, Rear Admiral Staring never sold out despite pressure to do otherwise. His words from the documentary Dead in the Water make the point loud and clear:
“Well, I simply could not find an evidentiary basis for that conclusion [of mistaken identity]. I had considerable trouble with the record in attempting to, as I read through it, attempting to find the evidence, the testimony and/or other evidence that would support some of the findings or opinions or conclusions that the Court of Inquiry had drafted and reached.”
Doubtless history will judge that Rear Admiral Staring was an officer of the court, not a politician. And by refusing to partake in a deliberate strategy of deep-sixing what he saw as a terribly flawed investigation, he made a sacrifice in 1967 that helps us today. To borrow words from Senator Webb’s pending legislation, Rear Admiral Staring is someone who held on to the idea that we are a “society founded upon fundamental fairness”.
Senator James Webb was the US Secretary of the Navy from May 1, 1987 until February 23, 1988, but no evidence exists, as far as I am aware, that Webb has publicly supported Rear Admiral Staring’s stance either then or anytime for that matter. And while Jim Webb was Secretary of the Navy, he was in a supervisory position, much like Rear Admiral Staring and, in the civilian world, much like a district attorney, so he knew or should have known of the Liberty incident as well as the flawed NCOI.
For one thing, approximately eight years before James Webb became Secretary of the Navy, Liberty vet survivor Jim Ennes, Jr. broke the code of silence on behalf of the American people when he chronicled the attack in his book, Assault on the Liberty. So by 1987, knowledge suggesting that the attack was deliberate and a cover-up took place was in the public domain.
Secondly, just a few months prior to Webb assuming the office, the Navy Law Review published in Vol. 36 (1986) an article titled, A Juridical Examination of the Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty by Lt. Commander Walter Jacobsen, JAG. And as the abstract states, “the author concludes that the attack was not supportable in international law and recommends a thorough, public investigation into the attack by the United States Congress.” As an officer of the court, Senator Webb knew or should have known of this law review article and its conclusions.
Thirdly, and potentially most troubling, one aspect of the Liberty incident suggests that affirmative steps were taken to forever deep-six the investigation while Webb was Secretary of the Navy. As reported repeatedly all over the internet, described in books about the Liberty incident, and according to Wiki: “On December 17, 1987, the [Liberty incident] issue was officially closed by the two governments [USG and GOI] through an exchange of diplomatic notes.”
Senator Webb was Secretary of the Navy on December 17, 1987. While I have tried to verify this information but am yet unable to do so (and continue to question if this actually should refer to 1980), Senator Webb can clear up this confusion very quickly with a public statement -- one that confirms whether or not, as Secretary of the Navy, he agreed that the Liberty incident was “officially closed”. And he is obligated to do so if he wants to act in a manner consistent with the spirit and rationale underlying his pending legislation that recommends the creation of a commission to investigate prior miscarriages of justice.
Everyone ultimately is part of a tradition and, unfortunately, nothing indicates, as far as I am aware, that Senator Webb, as an officer of the court, is of the same tradition as that of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, specifically in regard to the Liberty incident. Nothing at all.
For that matter, no evidence exists that Senator Webb is part of the tradition of Admiral Thomas Moorer (US Naval Academy, Class of 1933) and General Raymond Davis, USMC (MOH), both of whom, along with Rear Admiral Staring, signed the report of the Moorer Commission (2003) that investigated the Liberty incident. And astonishingly, this report included, among other things, a finding that echoes the very same wording that Senator Webb relies upon to justify his proposed legislation. Here is the relevant finding from the Moorer Commission:
“That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace….”
Please note the words -- “national disgrace”. And now here are Senator Webb’s words from his pending legislation. “America's criminal justice system has deteriorated to the point that it is a national disgrace.”
So surely Senator Webb would agree that the rationale that justifies his pending legislation also warrants a Congressional investigation into the USS Liberty incident. As Senator Webb states in his proposed legislation, “I believe that it is time to bring together the best minds in America to confer, report, and make concrete recommendations about how we can reform the process.”
But no evidence, that I am aware of, indicates that Senator Webb supports a Congressional investigation into the attack on the USS Liberty incident -- an inquiry that would be consistent with the VFW Resolution as well as the rationale underlying his proposed legislation. To the contrary, much evidence suggests that Senator Webb has participated in a code of silence that has led to a cover-up of a flawed investigation that includes “irregularities and inequities.”
Regardless, at this juncture, it is noteworthy to point out that Col. Patrick Lang -- a retired Green Beret and graduate of VMI -- has stated the following at his website Sic Semper Tyrannis in reference to Senator Webb and his stance on the USS Liberty incident.
“All
I am disappointed in the lack of response or action on the part of Senator Webb. I expected more from a US Marine officer. pl
Posted by: Patrick Lang | 31 July 2009 at 07:33 PM ”
And with this quote in mind, it should be remembered that Col. Lang, at the Athenaeum, among other sources, has left us with a statement that justifies Rear Admiral Staring’s stance and further reveals that the NCOI was, indeed, a travesty. Col. Lang has read “transcripts of the translated intercepts of radio conversations between the Israeli strike commander and his base before and during the attacks on USS Liberty.” In other words, Col. Lang is not only an expert witness but also a fact witness.
So, at least in the State of Virginia, promoting justice for the USS Liberty is now associated with Col. Lang and VMI and not with Senator Webb and the tradition he represents. At this point, Senator Webb appears more closely aligned with the tradition of Admiral McCain (US Naval Academy, Class of ‘31) who oversaw the NCOI for the Liberty and not that of Admiral Thomas Moorer (US Naval Academy, Class of ‘33) and others who called it a “national disgrace.”
But it does not have to be that way. Senator Webb could reevaluate the situation at hand and meet with members of the USS Liberty Veterans Association (Ernest Gallo, President, USS Liberty Veterans Association, Tele: 386-446-6855). Then after apologizing to them, Senator Webb could do one of two things. One, he could offer evidence that he believes legitimates the ongoing code of silence and cover-up. Such information, in and of itself, would help give closure to the Liberty vets and families.
However, if no such credible evidence is forthcoming, then Senator Webb should include a rider to The National Criminal Justice Commission Act of 2009. And this additional provision should call for a Congressional investigation that focuses exclusively on the attack on the Liberty and the subsequent cover-up. Yes? No?
Better yet, Senator Webb could rely upon the exact same rationale underlying The National Criminal Justice Commission Act of 2009 and sponsor new legislation, titled, American Justice for The USS Liberty Act of 2009. The proposed legislation could even incorporate the findings of the Moorer Commission and recommend June 8 as USS Liberty Remembrance day. And best of all, this new legislation could include language borrowed straight from Senator Webb’s recently drafted bill and referenced above:
America’s investigation into the attack on the USS Liberty deteriorated to the point that it was a national disgrace. Its irregularities and inequities cut against the notion that we are a society founded on fundamental fairness.
So I believe that it is time to bring together the best minds in America to confer, report, and make concrete recommendations about how we can address this miscarriage of justice -- an injustice that has profoundly and adversely affected our national security interests. And with an attack on Iran looming large, the Obama administration should place the highest priority possible to ensure this legislation is enacted.
So here’s hoping that Virginia’s Senator Webb, in his capacity as a graduate of the US Naval Academy, a US Marine war hero, and an officer of the court, will help restore confidence in our government by becoming an advocate for the Liberty vets. By doing so, he will allow the Liberty vets and the American people to experience the best that our system of justice has to offer, thus proving that we indeed are “a society founded upon fundamental fairness”.
Sid
* For further information on the flawed NCOI for the Liberty, see Halliwell’s essay, “Attack Photos Prove NCOI Testimony and Finding Wrong”.
The USS Liberty Veterans Association approves this message and respectfully requests that Senator Jim Webb state publicly whether or not the NCOI for the Liberty contained “irregularities and inequities” and therefore is a “national disgrace”.
I recommend this post
Posted by: par4 | 12 August 2009 at 10:59 AM
Pat,
The pilot of the SR-71 who taped the Israeli voice communications (and having understood much of what he overheard insisted that the recordings be retained) is still around and a friend of mine, fyi.
Posted by: McGee | 12 August 2009 at 11:17 AM
The fact that a Congressional Investigation was never conducted is a wart on the face of America, and it is a shame and a disgrace that the word of the attacker was taken for truth over the word of those attacked. Where would our courts be if every criminal's protestation of innocence was accepted as truth over the victim's word? There would Never be any justice! And 42 years later, there has yet to be justice shown to the crew of the Liberty. This is pathetic. Shame on our Congressional leaders!
Posted by: Brandy Lupton Neilson | 12 August 2009 at 01:28 PM
The preemptive Six-Day War pre-staged the geopolitical dynamics for the "global war on terrorism," including the preemptive war in Iraq Those masterful at waging war "by way of deception" (the Mossad's operative credo) remain active. Anyone expecting to see these issues addressed in mainstream media need only examine the pro-Israel bias that—then as now—undermines public access to the facts required for informed choice.
Pro-Israelis continue to operate a "fifth column" inside the U.S. that actively displaces facts with what "the mark" can be deceived to believe. That modus operandi created a consensus belief in Iraqi WMD, Iraqi ties to Al Qaeda, Iraqi mobile biological weapons laboratories and assorted other fictions that we were induced to embrace as facts.
The facts of the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty mandate that this four-decade deceit be sustained as even a modest good faith investigation would conclude the obvious: the pro-Israelis who obscured the facts of that attack are obscuring the fact that it was pro-Israelis that induced us to invade Iraq.
As one example of how this duplicity proceeds in plain sight through mainstream media with, to date, with legal impunity, see: http://criminalstate.com/2009/08/israel’s-fifth-column-the-people-in-between/
Jeff Gates, author, Guilt By Association -- How Deception and Self-Deceit Took America to War www.criminalstate.com
Posted by: jeff gates | 12 August 2009 at 04:47 PM
McGee
Would he be willing to talk
to us??
I am a survivor and of course we would like his statement.
Posted by: Ron | 12 August 2009 at 04:59 PM
This commentary entitled, "The USS Liberty Incident -- Truly a National Disgrace" By Sidney O. Smith III …. Is perhaps the best article I have ever read on Israel's and the US government's role in the cover-up of this heinous crime. Indeed, if those of us reading it really care about the safety and welfare of members of our armed forces, about equality before the law and about preserving our constitutional freedoms we will print out a copy of Sidney’s article here:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2009/08/the-uss-liberty-incident-truly-a-national-disgrace-.html#comment-captcha
And send it to our elected representatives in (both) Houses of Congress by US Mail.
Posted by: An old salt | 12 August 2009 at 06:55 PM
You keep plaintively hoping that Senator Webb will take up this issue... What is this based on? What exactly is he waiting for? Possibly you are giving him too much credit.
Posted by: Tosk59 | 12 August 2009 at 08:50 PM
An old Salt and others:
Thank you very much and I hope this essay helps.
USN vet and Liberty supporter par excellence -- John Gidusko -- emailed me and gave me even further information that documents what I can only call the heroism of Rear Admiral Staring as an officer of the court. Most of the info is contained in a letter that Admirals Staring and Hill wrote to the Secretary of the Army after the War Crimes Report was filed. You can read all about it at the following link:
http://home.roadrunner.com/~gidusko/crimes/
Mr. Gidusko’s website is full of unique info, so here is a link for anyone who is interested:
http://tinyurl.com/ussliberty
Sid
Posted by: Sidney O. Smith III | 12 August 2009 at 09:08 PM
It looks like someone didn't like the thread at A Growing Hysteria. It reminds me of Raskolnikov's dream in Crime and Punishment where the world is destroyed by a pestilence. Each person is infected with a unique idea they kill for because they are sure they are right. But the few who are not infected survive and create a better world.
Posted by: optimax | 12 August 2009 at 09:29 PM
Sidney O. Smith III
I did post a belated reply to your post on the Athenaeum. Apologies again for the delay.
I admire your persistence in trying to get Senator Webb to live up to his reputation and seek justice for the crew of the USS Liberty.
Posted by: F B Ali | 12 August 2009 at 10:52 PM
I sincerely hope that Sidney O.Smith's efforts to "rattle the cage" of all those allowing the official lie to continue its masquerade as "official truth". It is difficult not to see this affair as an American Dreyfus case, wherein revelation of a continuing deception is seen as more dangerous to the nation than passive acceptance of flagrant malfeasance by "friend" and foe alike. The main target of righteous indignation should be not Israel or its professional apologists, but rather those American politicians of both parties who have knowingly chosen to continue to betray the men of the U.S.S. Liberty, and in so doing have betrayed the republic.
This is indeed a national disgrace, enabled even now by a conspiracy of silence.
Posted by: Hannah K. O'Luthon | 13 August 2009 at 02:05 AM
optimax, that is so century before last. the growing hysteria thread catastrophe was caused by cuteness cum incompetence. metaphorize from that what you will.
apologies.
in penance am abstaining from all formatting save punctuation.
Posted by: rjj | 13 August 2009 at 06:13 AM
why would Israel attack an American ship deliberately?
Posted by: i | 13 August 2009 at 06:47 AM
i
Israel was involved in a complex set of maneuvers against Egypt and Syria. they did not want the ship reporting on what they were doing. what they didn't seem to understand very well was that there were other SIGINT collection capabilities as well as the ship. pl
Posted by: Patrick Lang | 13 August 2009 at 08:27 AM
in penance am abstaining from all formatting save punctuation.
;) happened to me all the time on typepad blogs, and especially in cases like yours ;). I am famous for creating italic/inverse threads ... You simply have to pay heightened attention if your code is at the end of the text. Thus you won't notice it's closed in preview.
Strictly, I am wondering why typepad doesn't manage to modify the code so that each unclosed tag is automatically closed with the comment, just in case one is left open.
The new software on Mondoweiss does just that, but has no preview button. And yes I miss the button.
I belong to the easily embarrassed crowd too, especially when I notice mistakes in my comments, which on the other hand doesn't keep me from adding new ones due to a to hurried note or other things on my mind. We can form a club for the easily embarrassed? You will be our star, since hardly anyone would have noticed the extra s. ;)
Posted by: LeaNder | 13 August 2009 at 10:30 AM
If the purpose of these posts is to remind US of the victims of our policies in middle-east great. By the way how many Israelis, Palestinians, and Arabs generally have been killed or severely injured b US weaponary? I ask only because the US sailors died on an assigned missions, some no doubt acted heroically, but not sure what these continued Liberty Posts represent? The dead cannot be brought back to life! The US and Israel will continue to act as though this event never occurred. Could it happen again? Absolutely! Will it happen again absolutely? Why? When it comes to the middle-east and its policy and wars, neither Arab, Palestinian, Israli, or US policy maker are learning individuals or polity! These tragedy is only more likely each passing day and month and year to occur again only this time far more than those directly involved may feel the pain and suffering that continues daily in the middle-east and Lebanon and Palestine!
Posted by: William R. Cumming | 13 August 2009 at 12:11 PM
From reading the legislation the USS Liberty incident will not be reviewed by this commission. The key items for review, which are long overdue, are:
1, prison population growth: With 5% of the world's population, our country now houses 25% of the world's reported prisoners.
2. Impact of 'drug' crimes and mandatory sentencing plicies: Incarcerated drug offenders have soared 1200% since 1980.
3. The mentally ill and crime: Four times as many mentally ill people are in prisons than in mental health hospitals.
Posted by: Fred | 13 August 2009 at 12:21 PM
I don't understand.
They didn't want the US to find what?
why was the US Ship there?
report to whom? the egyptians?
Posted by: I | 13 August 2009 at 12:22 PM
WRC
The unprovoked and deliberate attack by Israel on this US Navy ship was an act of war which Lyndon Johnson let them get away with. they have treated us with contempt ever since. I will not relent until this set of facts is well understood by the American people.
Your assertion the Israelis have been injured by American made ordnance is simply ludicrous. They kill everyone else with our stuff. Come by my office some time and I will show you my collection of American made ordnance items that I have acquired from the Pslestinian houses into which these TOW missiles and tank HE rounds were fired. pl
Posted by: Patrick Lang | 13 August 2009 at 12:28 PM
i
You are either dense or a provocateur.
They did not want the US, GET IT, the US, to know what they were doing until they had done it. pl
Posted by: Patrick Lang | 13 August 2009 at 12:31 PM
I, is being obtuse, a sort of nice guy but is like a Kerryman, from Ireland, answers responses from questions with questions.
I, why are you here?
Posted by: Cloned Poster | 13 August 2009 at 01:00 PM
PL! Perhaps to oversimplify my post, there are no innocents in the Middle-East. The drama is being played out with the consent of all of the actors. Also I consider land mines to be ordnance. There is some evidence of SCUD missle guidance items being from the US. But I get your point. This is an important cause and hoping thta your posts on this subject will bring justice. And always remember Justice is different very different than truth.
Posted by: William R. Cumming | 13 August 2009 at 01:59 PM
Always the question comes up, "Why would Israel do this?" I don't know but there are plenty of possibilities. One of which is that they told the U.S. ahead of time to move that ship or they would sink it. The ship wasn't moved due to communication problems, and they sure tried to sink it.
Asst Sec. of Defense Stenbit told us in 2003 about the warning, check this web site for more info:
http://home.roadrunner.com/~gidusko/liberty/stenbit.htm
Posted by: John Gidusko | 13 August 2009 at 03:37 PM
WRC
"There are no innocents in the Middle-East" What absolute crap! Tell me what there was about an unarmed US Navy SIGINT collector in international waters that was NOT innocent?
What was there about that situation that justified repeated air and surface attacks on the ship by a supposed ally?
You wrote something to me about this perhaps having been necessary for the greater good. What the hell are you talking about?
You sound like an Israeli. pl
Posted by: Patrick Lang | 13 August 2009 at 03:38 PM
If I sound like an Israeli too - be it. Why is a mistake in a war fought by the Israelis against
Nasser a criminal act, the killing of thousands of civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan
an innocent error ? Because in the case of the "Liberty" the
mistake was done by Jews ??
Posted by: GZB | 13 August 2009 at 04:29 PM