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05 April 2009


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Hear these fools hyperventilate over Obama's "bow", while they make no mention of Bush and Cheney having done the exact same thing; there are photos of this.
But, with these pinheads, IOKIYAR.

Joel Wetzel

Bowing can be construed either way, but I think of it as a sign of good manners. What bothers me is the acceptance of knighthoods by US officials from the Queen of England. This shows where their true loyalties lie. Bush, Sr., Alan Greenspan, Rudy Giuliani, are three quickly found examples of this duplicity.


Bunch of paranoid losers commenting on this nonsense. The world has changed in the last few months, we have a president who doesn't give a shet what you people think, it was a gesture of respect for a foreign leader and means nothing. Bush's photo op holding hands with the king was pathetic. It's about time we have a president who is real and doesn't need his handlers telling him protocol just because.

William P. Fitzgerald III

At the risk of being tedious, I have a couple of really final observations. Many of the more vehement views on this post reflect anti-royal sentiments more appropriate to America in the 19th century. We do, after all, live in an age, when royalty is an endangered species and is in no conceivable way a threat to democratic forms of government.Most of those remaining are constitutional monarchys and don't take a back seat to us when it comes to the democratic forms of government.
The prohibition against dipping the flag in salute during the Olympic opening ceremonies has always seemed to me to be an example of silliness. Of course the United States recognizes royalty and has since the revolution when we sent ambassadors and envoys to monarchs and sent a long letter to George IIId. (The Declaration of Independence)
The practice of returning salutes by our presidents is very new, as has been mentioned, and is a perfect example of the way a practice, once initiated, is practically impossible to get rid of. The other great example is the ending of important adresses with " May God continue to, and never, never stop, bless the United States of America. Any president choosing not to do those things would probably be roundly condemned as having shaken the very fondations of the republic. I suppose that they've now reached the status of (unwritten) protocol.



What about kisses and hand holding?

Diaper Dave

I recall Bush and King Abdullah kissing/holding hands....what about that?

And if a president shouldnt bow to a King shouldnt he also boo the Queen?


Bush bowed too.


Ok, while I guess the obvious answer to my question, Who gives a fig?, is obvious, I would just still have to ask it.

Does anyone think that this gesture has any effect on governance or policy or anything...you know...real?

Also, if the administration is trying to improve our image in the "moslem world", isn't showing respect for the guardian of the two holy places-in a way that he and his constituency find meaningful-appropriate?

Patrick Lang


I don't know which post this goes to but Charles I asked me to post it. pl

"Norman, you misinterpret anger as hatred. Ignoring argument, you wield the primitive club of the antisemitic smear, standard armament of the defender of the indefensible. In a manner we have now become familiar - and many angry with - you offer irrelevant psychiatric counsel rather than consider the stability the Pakistani polity, Israeli foreign policy and the possible future synergy between them, and stray banana peels.

I don't have the time at the moment, nor the inclination, to rebut ad hominem comment, previously enjoined in this forum, with footnoted argument.

I suggest you search this forum for posts on the SUBJECTS, although I don't recall any specifically dealing with mental health, or visit the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights at http://www.pchrgaza.org/.

There have been any number of posts here about Pakistan which may be fruitful to search as well.

Perhaps you could review the history of the Occupation, and the abject failure of Israel, at the height of its powers, to make peace, or even reduce the level of barbarity Israelis inflict on their captives, - including the apparent cold-blooded murder of children, a recent post on this forum having included an apparent transcript of an IDF officer confirming the murder, sourced from The Guardian - while relentlessly expanding the illegal settlements.

If the reporting you were exposed to during Israel's recent criminal assault on Gaza did not make you angry, its not for me to tell you that you can get counseling that may expose the root of your apparent imperiousness to the inhumanity of shooting fish in a barrel with an F-16, although it may, but I do ask that you surf the net or the local library for more reportage of Palestinian suffering.

Start at the PCHR above, and review the roster of Palestinians, including women, children and duly elected legislators murdered and kidnapped by the IDF and other Israeli security services throughout the course of the Occupation.

If less sanguinary, research is more to your liking, start with United Nations resolutions of the matter.

Two excellent books, one by a respected Israeli academic and eminent journalist, another by that champion of primary source truth-telling, Noam Chomsky, may help you further divine the nature of my psychosis.

In theses books you find well cited blithe admissions from generations of Israelis about their patient plans to execute their 2000 year old land claim for Eretz Israel, and measures to deal with any who stand it it's way. You will also find well documented accounts of the lengths they have and apparently will go to to retain and expand their alleged biblical entitlement.

"Lords Of The Land - The War Over Israel's Settlements In The Occupied Territories", by
Israeli historian Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar, cheif political columnist for Ha'aretz.

"Fateful Triangle - The United States, Israel & The Palestinians" by Noam Chomsky

You may consider the future of Pakistan by reading any number of recent books an the subject, here I can recommend

"Descent into chaos: the U.
S. and the failure of nation building in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia" by Ahmed Rashid.

With regard to the mental state of Avigdor, Jaun Cole recently posted a selection the world according to Avigdor, sourced from the Electronic Intifada, which I also commend to you in full, but citing Juan Coles' few examples, found here:


I tell you Norman, my shrink won't listen to any of this - its irrelevant to my delusions." Charles I

Patrick Lang

yo mama too

Explain to all us folks who voted for Obama how the world changed.

Explain to us how King Abdullah bin Abd al-aziz is seen as a symbol of 3rd world liberation in all them places.

Explain pl


Well, I don't know about ya'll but I find that picture worth a million bucks.

Everybody's face just captured the moment perfectly.

Sarkozy has that "dude, not again." look. "You are over doing it. plus you are ruining it for everybody. Pecking order is a good thing."

I specially like the young dude on the left. He maybe the King's handler. I can feel his mind grinding... "no no, this can't happen to me. What's he doing? The king is going to grill me for not briefing the prez agreed protocol. Dude, ... I am fried"

I specially like the King's face. "Heh, heh.... Ooooo. I think I like this guy.. very clever"

All in all, everybody looks human and seems to be in the moment. I just hope Obama knows what he is doing. Everybody definitely has some surprised look in their face.


Anyway, browsing the news on the O's big trip to europe and turkey.

- France are definitely warming up and charmed with Obama's earthy move. Sarkozy has that same look in every you tube and pictures,.... dude, not again. Yer obsessed with this "people" thing. hurry up with the handshaking the crowd already.

- I watched the german press conference. Cordial, a bit tense and very measured, but I think they are also relieved that there is process and discussion instead of Bush old NATO. I am not so sure if Germany likes very much about changing NATO, but they do seem to recognize the problem.

-Turkey. A big hit. I think everybody likes Obama down there. Major win. His speech strikes all the high notes.

G20. I sense of relief and little thawing. which is good. I was expecting a complete deadlock.


As a private citizen I would rather miss an opportunity to meet a king or queen than show any respect to an outmoded and frankly rotten institution.

So I wish Obama had not bowed.

The point of checking whether Bush or any previous president bowed is simply to see whether Obama was following an established protocol and whether the right-wing (Michelle Malkin, etc.) outrage has any merit to it.


Pat, you aren't by any chance reading Ahmet Karamustafa's book?

SissCo Kids

So what if Obama bowed to the Saudi Prince. Christ led by washing feet. If a bow of respect brings us closer to peace, then it was worth it. A bow is a move in a strategy of world peace and demonstrates strength of character in a willingness to show respect, not arrogance. Haven't we had enough of the cowboy antics that took us into Iraq? Barack Obama is showing true leadership and strength of character!


It was obvious to many of us even before the primary campaigns heated up that Obama was nothing more than a good teleprompter reader. In just under three months in office, he has proven our worse suspicions.


First Bush bows before the king and now Obama does it. Why do US presidents bow before the Saudis? Well at least Obama didn't hold the king's hands and go for a stroll like Bush did.


Protocol is important, but how much news coverage was the following given compared with the genuflections, bows, and touchings of the first family.

The bill is one of two introduced last week by Sens. John Rockefeller, D-W.Va., and Olympia Snowe, R-Maine. The other would create a position, the national cybersecurity adviser, within the Executive Office of the President.


The bill envisions a public-private clearinghouse to share standards, and requires the president to choose one agency to respond to cyberattacks. The president would also have the authority to declare a “cybersecurity emergency.”

A week or so ago Mearsheimer said, "The lobby has never had much trouble keeping the New York Times and the Washington Post in line, but it has few ways to silence critics on the internet."

The lobby might not be able to do it, but ....


Well, he's bowing to Larry Summers, too. He bows a lot.


This whole episode is a misunderstanding. According to the White House Press Sec. Obama bent over to shake hands with the much shorter king. Apparently the king is 52 inches tall. I'm thankful honesty has returned to the White House after being absent for so many years.

K. Hayes

Maybe, after the news of the would-be assassins in Turkey, he has taken to randomly ducking as a precaution.


Americans are making too much fuss about nothing. There is nothing wrong with US president bowing to King Abdullah. The King is a wise leader almost like a father of young Obama. So what's the big deal about a gesture of respect.

Mark Conklin

Gentlemen, it wasn't a bow. And the reason it wasn't a bow is, it was a KISS. Look at the clip carefully. Just prior to the alledged bow, Obama grasps the Saudi King's hand. The view is blocked by the gentleman between the action and the camera but it is easy to see what has happened. This muslim president has just bent low and kissed the hand of this yahoo. The spin doctors would rather exercise "plausible deniability" and defend the alledged bow. But a kiss of the hand? That is another matter altogether and much more difficult to spin. Just one man's opinion of what I know I saw.


If Obama were an undercover Muslim, he wouldn't live in the same house with a dog. Wait and see if Bo is chained up outside 24/7, next to the Ford Escort on blocks.


God how unbelievably shallow the whole world is! and u think there will ever be peace and no terrorism in the world if a bow will cause so much commotion! God help us all!


This is very interesting. Fundamentalist political Islam always has the same pattern: Saudi Wahabism + Pakistan ISI training + State Dept. hackeries.

Somebody really have to come down hard on Saudi religious school and ISI endless military training to militants And start whacking the idiots at states.

All the so called al qaeda related groups/political parties have these ingredients. The pattern similarities are too incredible.

I wonder if I can start predicting who goes to hell next.


“If we emphasize Shariah or religious matters, our supporters will decline, so we should emphasize mostly clean government and anticorruption,” he said in an interview at the party’s headquarters, whose facade mostly bears images of the party’s humanitarian activities and has no references to its religious goals.

But Mr. Zainuddin — who graduated from Lipia, a Saudi-financed university here that promotes Wahhabism, a rigid interpretation of Islam — also believes in the party’s founding goal of carrying out Shariah in Indonesia.

The party is now split between those committed to pursuing the party’s Islamist goals and those who want to stress good government.

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