Where did Madoff stash his cash?

OK, so a lot of the loot is in Ruthie's name, and she will probably get to keep some of it whether or not she, too, is indicted.  I am unmoved by the injustice of la famille Madoff being allowed to keep some of their loot.  Life is unfair.  I was taught that systematically, and I accept it, although I would be willing to accept the villa in Antibes as a gesture intended to soothe my feelings.

I am more disturbed by the fact that so many Jews let this piece of s--t cheat them because he, too, was a Jew.  How dumb is that?  Hell, we could have found lots of Gentiles pefectly willing to cheat them with equal efficacy and despatch.  (Here I am revealed as a self-hating Gentile. But, then, you probably already sensed that.)  Seriously, folksim, don't trust people just because they belong to some category or other.  There are scum bags everywhere.  (I was taught that by my father who took me to visit the camp at Dachau when I was a small boy - 1948ish maybe?

No.  I want to know where Bernie stashed the money that he kept.  The numbers indicate to me that there is a lot of money that is not accounted for by simple pay-outs to later "investors."  Where is it?  WHERE IS IT?

Is there a government involved? I want to know.  pl

 

Comments

[zanzibar]

Is the guilty plea part of the deal to hide the loot and the co-conspirators? It defies common sense to believe that Bernie did this on his own.

[The beaver]

May be Sonja Kohn is the real custodian overseas and that's why she is in hiding (wonder if she is not somewhere in Israel)

[fasteddiez]

Colonel:

I think I know what you're thinking. Same Same, on my part (if I'm right).

Bibi comes to DC to read the riot act to the president, and to touch base with his "retired" Katsa buddies. What comes next is the usual appeal to free Jonathan Pollard.

This time, Bernie's name is added in, for good measure, in return for a promise to launch half baked exploratory talks with hostile Arab entities (to be named later) on the subject of peace.

Where is the money Indeed? Why have off shore banking secrets not been divulged (due to our intel penetration)?

I have always thought that the yearly money sent to the Israeli government by Congresscritterdom, as well as by US supporters, is insufficient. Insufficient, that is, to grease the palms of so many here who insure the continuity of the state of Israel's stepinfethinesque treatment of what laughingly passes as a government of the people. A reeking sack of shit is a much better description.

[Milton Arbogast]

To suggest that some of that money might have ended up in Israel. What a thought!

[robt willmann]

Where did Bernard Madoff stash "his" cash?

Hmmm ... "his" cash.

I think it is safe to assume (although assuming is what Madoff's marks did) that some, many, or most of Madoff's customers were victims whose money is truly gone.

But there are (at least) four issues floating around, along with the money.

1. Insurance. Were any of Madoff's customers, including the charities, insured against the loss of the money they invested with him? For example, some people and entities who bought the "mortgage backed" securities also purchased insurance in case the bonds went into default. And in that part of the securitization scam, the insurance companies were about to go broke because they did not have enough reserves to pay the claims on the defaulted bonds.

2. Tax effects. Are any tax credits or deductions available to Madoff's customers that allow them to offset, in whole or in part, their claimed loss from taxes they would otherwise have to pay?

3. Parking the money for some customers. This is a subtle and tricky possibility. For some of Madoff's customers, he parked their money somewhere, they can quietly get access to it, and they will get it back, along with any insurance payments, tax credits and deductions, and payments from a government "victim's" fund. In other words, for some favored customers, Madoff ran a scam within a scam, and they cry "victim" as they collect any extra on top of their base investment and any "return" they received from the Ponzi aspect of the scheme.

4. Government involvement. Is there a government involved? Most likely. Suspects can include, but are not limited to, governments in Israel, China, and Russia. And our own? The Iran-Contra scandal of the 1980's is an example. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) agents have complained for years about other agencies of the federal government protecting large-scale drug traffickers from prosecution because the traffickers provide "help" to another agency, usually an "intelligence" agency or the State Department.

The U.S. Justice Department has been strangely meek on criminal charges in this case. Normally, Madoff, his wife, children, pets, and anyone or any company remotely connected with his operation would have all been indicted in a sprawling RICO (racketeering) indictment, including the federal catch-all charge -- conspiracy -- in which the co-conspirators don't even have to know one another in order to be a member of the criminal conspiracy.

The word is that the CIA or NSA or a related department has an access point or computers co-located at one or more of the main hubs overseas through which international money transfers are routed. Perhaps Judge Dennis Chin can issue a subpoena in aid of the court's sentencing duty to Leon Panetta and have him testify in open court about the CIA's knowledge of Mr. Madoff's operation, the flow of the money, and where that money might be.

Now that would be a show, with Justice Department lawyers popping up and crying "state secrets privilege" and making other amusing objections. But such a course of action might be of some help to the genuine victims.

[curious]

you are not going to find the money, ever. It's deep inside coss border banking transaction and transfer. Trying to dig up secret back door will piss off the most powerful people in the planet. It simply won't happen.

Interestingly Madoff case would reveal the very structure of present day flow of israel support/zionism. (the people, the flow of money, the organisation, name, address, account number, travel pattern, ownerships)

http://billtotten.blogspot.com/2009/03/bernard-madoff.html

It is worthwhile to list the inadvertent positive outcomes of Madoff's mega-swindle. First of all the swindle of $50 plus billion dollars may make a big dent on US Zionist funding of illegal Israeli colonial settlements in the Occupied Territories, lessen funding for AIPAC's purchase of Congressional influence and financing of propaganda campaigns in favor of a pre-emptive US military attack against Iran. Most investors will have to lower or eliminate their purchase of Israel bonds, which subsidize the Jewish State's military budget.

Secondly, the swindle has further discredited the highly speculative hedge funds already reeling from massive withdrawals because of deep losses. Madoff's funds were one of the last 'respected' operations still drawing new investors, but with the latest revelations it may accelerate their demise. The dismissed promoters may finally have to perform an honest, productive day's work. ...

[Mark Logan]

I second the motion for some sort of accounting. There are a lot of numbers being tossed around in the media that are not being described with any meaningful detail. "$65 billion"? Is this the amount collected and deposited by Madoff into bank accounts, or is it the amount he claimed he had built his portfolio to? Since the claim is that he never invested any of it, and only deposited it,
how can a man spend that much money without having
something to show for it?

Let's see some real numbers!

I know a doctor who made an interesting comment on how he selected his victims. He said that among the society of the rich and famous, some of the worst doctors make a wondrously lucrative living by having their reputations inflated,
(without effort on their part) by their clients. Seems everybody likes to believe they are seeing the best Doc possible, and wishes to share their good fortune with their friends
"in the clique".

I'm not sure Madoff targeted Jews in particular. Maybe they just happened to be the species of pigeon in his "neighborhood"?

[William R. Cumming]

Interesting article in this month's Vanity Fair about Madoff and one on a principal victim. Tracing of funds is a difficult process with someone as devious as Madoff and over such a period of time. Not giving legal or tax advice but uninsured losses from theft (and the Guilty Plea collaterally estops the feds from arguing no theft but simple negligence)usually are entitled to casualty loss when exceeding 10% of AGI but perhaps victims could go back to recover taxes paid perhaps for open years returns for which statute of limitations has not run. That said given that all properly paid and owed taxes were paid by victims on Madoff earnings Uncle Sugar was huge beneficary of the scam. My guess is that even now the Joint Committee on taxation is researching the issues and given the powerful "donors" to Madoff special legislation to help the victims could will be passed. One way or another time will tell. I would be interested to know of Madoff's campaign contributions and charitable giving donees!

[J]

Colonel,

No one wants to talk about the impossibility of move huge sums of money (now officially $65 billion!) out of this country or even around inside of it. Madoff didn't hide his loot in his walk-in closet and we now know that the bulk of it is invested in Israel. The U.S. authorities do not wish to annoy the Israelis, especially, their political action committees in D.C. so the issue somehow never seems to be raised in our worthless mainstream media. It is up to the ripped-off investors to form committees of their own and organize to demand a full and open investigation into Madoff’s actions, and demand the return of all the money from Israel back to the U.S..

[curious]

btw, nobody has posted this yet.

List of Madoff client submitted to US court. (16 pages. I think it is not full list)

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/madoffvictimslist.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/04/business/main4776775.shtml?source=related_story

Google map of location. (gotta see this, click on manhattan map)
http://www.uslaw.com/madoff/

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/06/business/madoff.3-424440.php

But the most eye-catching legal name may be that of Madoff's own lawyer, Ira Lee Sorkin, who is shown with an individual account and as the agent for accounts for his parents, both dead.

Finally, the list includes an account attributed to the author Idee Schoenheimer, whose co-author on a cookbook called "Great Chefs of America Cook Kosher" was Ruth Madoff, Bernard Madoff's wife.

[mlaw230]

I doubt it is really 60 billion.

Typically a large percentage of investors, delighted with their statements simply roll over their investment with the schemer.

So there may have been 100Million invested which fraudulently returned 110Million, which would then, if rolled over returned 121Million, followed by 132million, all through the magic of compounding.

After several years of this the "investor" believes he is entitled to many multiples of his original capital, after all he has the statements. In reality there was not as much invested as it first appears.

Its probably all gone.

[doug]

The $65B figure is the summed, stated current value on all the account statements sent by Bernie to his investors. It represents the (fictional) accrued gains and (real) principal. The actual cash collected by Bernie is far less - it is only the principal. That cash was probably mostly depleted by investors that pulled out money to pay taxes on their "gains" or just needed money for whatever reason. There may also be a few that smelled a rat and pulled their money out earlier. When the total withdrawals exceeded the invested cash, Bernie's fictional $65B (accrued fictional profits) value could no longer be sustained.

When Ponzi's collapse, it's because they run out of money paying old investors while new ones dry up. Rarely is there any actiual money left since it was never more substantive than an inkspot on paper.

The Jewish community is devastated by this. The idea Israel or Jews (other than Bernie who will get free room and board for life) somehow benefited is ludicrous.

But it won't be the last affinity scam.

[different clue]

I too wonder why Mr. Madoff is being allowed to plead guilty all by himself with no effort made to touch
anyone who worked/works with
him. Unless government figures are making secret efforts to trace money and relationships.
Tracing the money would be worth doing, if there is very much money left to find. mlaw230 noted a problem I had not thought of, namely that many investors believed their statements which were themselves probably bogus, and let the "money" keep "rolling over". And when the Ponzi scheme fell down, they think the money is "gone" when in fact the final amounts of money on those final statements may never have existed to begin with. At a simpler level, a lot of the money paid in by late investors was paid out to early investors (those who took out actual money as against those who let money roll over). And those early returns to early investors probably got spent into the general economy. Still...a tracing effort would be good, and might be a powerful lever to force a deeper study into the world of Private Banks and Tax Haven jurisdictions.

Curious, your theory about
how much of this moneyflow went to prop up various Israeli efforts is interesting, but I am not sure we have any way to test it. If the wider economy weren't also shrinking with all kinds of other funding systems and philanthropy/investment channels also shrinking and drying up; we could see whether these money-to-Israel systems shrink way down compared to everything else in the wider economic system. Perhaps we can still see if money-to-Israel
shrinks down harder and faster than money to other places-and-causes. Especially if we see money-to-Israel through Madoff-collapsed channels shrink way down while other money-to-Israel through non-Madoff-collapsed channels keeps flowing.

(And now I see I merely repeated Doug who described how Ponzis collapse leaving little money hidden anywhere
better than I did. They are somewhat like rocket engines which travel oh-so-fast with a bright flame till the fuel runs out. And then they fall to earth with very little hidden rocket fuel anywhere to be found). Robt Willman's four
issues deserve study and the
first three might turn up some money to be seized and redivided among the suckers.
But issue four may never be unearthed and understood. Still, it deserves hard study so we can at least know the color of the brick wall we would run into.

Finally, if there enough "affinity scams" in the world to cause the invention of the word "affinity scam" , then it probably goes to show that people of any ethnic group will probably trust the well-disguised scammer from their own ethnic group.
If that Texan ponziguy, Sir Whatever, who was recently exposed; turns out to have had a high percent of Texan victims; that would show that same affinity principle
at work in yet another ethnic group. (If we can think of Texans as evolving towards their own unique ethnic groupness).

[jonst]

"Where is it? WHERE IS IT?"!

Well, using the Col's post as a guide....I would say it is spread out in small banks, across New England, and the upper Mid-West. Banks that stayed away from derivatives, and are run, exclusively, by WASPS. Male WASPS at that.

[Bill Wade, NH, USA]

I read somewhere that Madoff only contributed campaign funds to one person, and that was Charles Schumer.

[Will]

too bad Eliot Spitzer was otherwise pre-occupied.

"Markopolos testified he (anonymously) sent a package of documents concerning Madoff to former New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, who had successfully prosecuted a number of securities fraud cases, but that Spitzer took no apparent action, either. Spitzer's family trust had invested in Madoff.
"

....

"
Boston-based Rampart Investment Management Co. is a firm that specializes in the trading of options (contracts that let investors buy or sell stocks and other financial instruments at set prices). In 2000, Markopolos' bosses wanted to learn how they could match Madoff's double-digit returns. A math whiz, he was assigned to deconstruct Madoff's strategy to see if he could replicate it. Again and again, he could not simulate Madoff's returns, using information he had gathered about Madoff's trades in stocks and options. Markopolos eventually decided Madoff was either running a Ponzi scheme - using money from new clients to pay off old ones - or he was engaging in illegal "front running" - stocks, improperly trading in investors' private accounts ahead of orders the firm received from outside clients. Even after leaving Rampart, he persevered by the pure intellectual challenge of cracking a Wall Street legend, and the ongoing encouragement from a Boston SEC staffer, Ed Manion.

The culmination of his analysis was a 21-page memo Markopolos sent in November 2005, to SEC regulators, "The World's Largest Hedge Fund is a Fraud." It outlined his suspicions in more detail and invited officials to check his theories.[11][12][13] In the document Markopolos states:

Bernie Madoff is running the world's largest unregistered hedge fund. He's organized this business as [a] "hedge fund of funds privately labeling their own hedge funds which Bernie Madoff secretly runs for them using a split-strike conversion strategy getting paid only trading commissions which are not disclosed." If this isn't a regulatory dodge, I don't know what is.
"

fro the wiki bio article on Harry Markopolos

[Clifford Kiracofe]

Interesting question.

I had wondered whether he was somehow linked to US organized crime.

If so, the Jewish element of the Natioanl Crime Syndicate has links to Israel.

Thus, perhaps the money is in Israel either in private banks or the Central Bank or something like that????

Even if he isn't linked to organized crime, perhaps the money is over there.

[J]

Colonel,

Madoff also took the fall for top NYC politicos who were also involved. Manhattan became super-Vegas of the east coast with 'Bernie's money laundering project.

[johnf]

I wouldn't have thought that Israel would be a very likely place for him to hide his money. He's just pissed off a whole lot of influential American citizens who give their money to Israel and a whole lot of highly influential Israelis who used to receive their money from America.

Tierra del Fuego? The Galapagos Islands? Under the 15th rock on the right seven and a half leagues out of Tucson?

[pj]

1. Madoff gave almost 1 million in political contributions, with Senator Schumer and his senate campaign committee being major recipients.

2. The SEC had multiple investigations of Madoff. Depending on who you listen to, the number of investigations is between 6 and 13.

3. While, the SEC may have a lot of incompetents, there are undoubtedly a number of quite competent and knowledgeable staff. A successful Madoff investigation would have made a career for any of the staff.

4. Madoff would appear to be someone who having made major campaign contributions would be unlikely to not call in a favor when he needed one.

5. It is highly likely that during at least one of the SEC investigations, Madoff called a politician and got the investigation squashed.

[Nevadan]

Bill Wade mentions Madoff's political contributions. The following link has more information on where his money was donated:
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?zip=10022&last=MADOFF&first=BERNARD

[Marcus]

Funny how the FBI traced Spitzer's prostitution money yet missed all of these deposits. Could he have been targeted?

Investor's in AIG, Meryl Lynch, Citi et al are backed up with taxpayer dollars. The autoworkers are expected to break their contracts while AIG gives millions in bonuses to the very people that helped create this financial mess.

The evidence is mounting--we live in a kleptocracy--with the government now continuing the Ponzi scheme (financing hedge funds to purchase "toxic assets") while preying on the weakest in the society--wage-earners.

I'm a self-hating Jeffersonian because I'm not doing enough to counter this corrupt system.

[MRW.]

mlaw230,

The prosecutors said last Friday that he bilked $62 or $64 billion, can't remember; and that the value (speculative) it represented was around $176 billion.

Also that Madoff was worth about $843 million.

[MRW.]

My question, after the announcement this AM that prosecutors are checking into Ruth Madoff's $93 million in assets, is: How did she earn that on a bookkeeper's salary?

[Dan M]

Pat,

On jews trusting jews.

It's no surprise that like often trusts like more than it trusts "not like" and in this case all those rich jews at Frenchman's creek and what have you that got taken in by bernie were certainly comfortable with him because he was "one of us." But one of us in this context doesn't just mean "jew." They wouldn't in a million years have given a red cent to some smelly, Lubavitch fanatic (as my jewish grandfather once called one of them in my presence) in Jamaica queens.
Bernie belonged to "their" clubs. He gave to "their" causes. He knew Elie Wiesel, his kids went to school with your kids, etc. etc. And you wouldn't in a million years believe that this guy would dare jeopardize his standing in the community that way.

Your broader point stands, that people allow their group identity to cloud their judgement. But this is far from exclusively Jewish (though of course minority groups are often more likely to fall into this way of thinking).