National Journal Blog, 13 March, 2009

The NJ decided this week to hold a conversation on the avenues open for communication on the subject of US/Israeli relations. 

Unfortunately, the early comments on this from some supporters of Israel make it clear that any attempt to speak freely on this subject will subject commenters to charges of anti-Semitism.  Boundaries are specified in their comments.   Rules are laid down for the maintenance of a muffled zone on this subject,  It is clear from these comments that the question is being used as a trap laid for any who wander into it.

I had thought not to walk into the trap, but so many reject that idea that I have changed my position.  We will compile opinions on the issue of the NJ weekly subject and after a couple of days I will post a link at that site to our discussion of the question as well as my own opinions.  pl

http://security.nationaljournal.com/2009/03/how-to-talk-about-israel.php

Comments

[JerseyJeffersonian]

Two prolix idiots. Two straight shooters. The first pair obfuscates with copious piles of noisome bullshit. The second duo gets right down to it, and says what they came to say. Their respective methodologies are revelatory, and in my book, probative regarding veracity.

For a glimmer of hope, I offer this link to TomDispatch:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175046/robert_dreyfuss_the_freeman_affair

It ain't over yet. Bullies just lo-o-ove to try and keep you backin' up. But that model comes a cropper when they encounter a refusal to be bullied.

[J]

Colonel,

That unfortunately is what the Zionist are counting on, that you will become 'tired' of being called anti-semite. They do the same to those Jews who dare to say that Zionism is NOT Judiasm and that Zionism and the Zionist State of Israel is an anathema to the Holy Scriptures. Zionism is full of hate, meanness, and will stoop to any depth to achieve their nefariousness, no matter how many they have to hurt/maim/kill in the process. Non-Jew or Jew, to them it doesn't matter, only that their objectives be achieved, which when distilled into its purest form is -- power, absolute power over everyone and everything. No dissent tolerated, no discussion tolerated, no medium tolerated. Reminds one of what was once called Totalitarianism distilled to its purest form.

[Gene]

You are not alone! It's happening all over the Western world: France - Canada - United Kingdom.

Did I mention Canada?

[different clue]

Getting name-called is surely no fun, but perhaps if one does not even bother responding to the namecallers; one's energy and time remains conserved. Jersey Jeffersonian may be correct. If venues like the
National Journal offer you and/or others a place to state all the not-off-limits-anymore contours of the debate; more and more people will show up to learn the contours and join the debate on those terms. And they can ignore and non-respond to the namecallers. The visiting reader will be able to weigh and assess the value and motivations of the various contributors.

It might even lure out of terrified hiding the Lesser Israel zionists, the J Street Projectors, and so forth; and embolden them to state their case and hold up
their end of the power struggle with the Greater Israel zionextremists.

And the reader can thereby decide over time if the distinction between Lesser Israel zionist and Greater Israel zionextremist
is real or bogus.

[johnf]

All not necessarily going well in Israeli/American relations. Israeli chief of Staff Brigadier General Ashkenazi cuts short his visit to Washington, while denying there was any problem. They'd been talking about Iran, then he upped sticks and flew home.

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3687471,00.html

[johnf]

Also, one cannot wait for the first meeting between Clinton and Israel's new Foreign Minister, Lieberman. The body language will be subtle. Worthy of the Three Stooges at their most subtle.

[curious]

more and more people thinks the wackos aren't helping.

http://israelblog.com/the-one-two-punch/

Yesterday’s post focused on the change in the White House. This article in Ha’aretz by Gershom Gorenberg, discusses change on Capital Hill:

Congress’ attitude toward the Arab-Israeli conflict has begun to shift. The conservative line of AIPAC, the veteran pro-Israel lobby, is no longer the only understanding of how to support Israel. The principle of two states for two peoples has become conventional wisdom on the Hill, as someone with a close knowledge of Congressional discussions of foreign policy recently told me. That’s the same principle that Netanyahu refused to endorse during his talks with Tzipi Livni.

[Medicine Man]

Colonel Lang,

I won't lob inanities at you or recite things you doubtlessly already know in this missive, but the fact remains that fondest desire of the Likudniks in Washington is to slander and intimidate all opponents of the Israel right wing into silence. Whatever your motives are, you have essentially given them what they want by retiring from these discussions.

I can't say that I blame you. The preface that National Journal put before that panel very clearly shows how much discussion of Mr. Freeman's assailants they will tolerate. The effort to frame the discussion is brazen and unsurprising. Were you to participate and speak your mind, I'm sure the response of the editors at the National Journal would be equally unsurprising. A little thinking about this and the source of your fatigue grows apparent.

Regardless, I worry when I see a man of your background retire from this spectacle. I'm not sure if I would have the moxie to face these people if I had your microphone, but I do believe that the fledgling meme Charles Freeman hatched in his recent rebuttal(s) deserves to be propagated. The meme I speak of is the inaccuracy of the term "Israel Lobby". Freeman is entirely correct when he calls his attackers the [Avigdor] Lieberman lobby. They aren't an "Israel" lobby any more than I'm the Dhali Lama. They represent a branch of the Israel polity that is not representative of the American Jewry or a plurality of the Israel public. Any successful push back against this idea that examination of the American/Israeli relationship is equivalent to hostility to Israel is a small victory.

I hope you will reconsider your decision not to contribute to this latest panel. I do respect your decision if you decide to let the merry-go-round turn without you for awhile though.

Cheers.
-MM

[mo]

That the Israeli lobby can decide who the President can or cannot appoint is horrendous.

That they can get a warrior such as yourself to yield by attrition means that not only have they won, they have won big.

There will be jubilation in their ranks today.

[FP]

Colonel,

You cannot and must not back down. The injustices will only continue, unless more people raise their voices to tell the thugs themselves to sit down and shut up. For decades, the opposite has been true.

Here's a timely commentary for you to read, sir.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15,0,5701821,print.story

[somebody]

I do not think this discussion is helpful at all, to name it "Israel" lobby, connect the lobby with Judaism and scapegoat it for desastrous US financial and military policy without analyzing the interests of the US military-industrial complex of which you, my dear Colonel are part of, comes down to anti-Jew prejudice in my code of ethics, too.
I would start with Reaganomics and the US "win" of the Cold War.

[PirateLaddie]

It's got to be tough, being a hard-core zionist these days. As a secularist, you can't rely on eventual victory thru the flaming sword of G*d, and your favorite pack horse may be in the early stages of terminal decline. They must wonder how long the poor beastie can continue to carry the moral and ideological load, all the while the demographic tide is shifting against them. Well, at least they lasted longer than the Thousand Year Reich.

[steve]

Dang. You need to do what is best for you and your family, but I will miss your thoughts. Yours is a credible voice, not just that of some pundit, so I hope you decide to resume commentary, but not if it is harmful to you. As I only discovered your blog a year or so ago (thinks Ford), have you published your general thoughts on "the Lobby" somewhere? I an overview?

Steve

[Clifford Kiracofe]

Col. Lang, my vote is for you to speak your mind plainly and boldly as usual. If the readers at NatJournal can't take it that is their problem.

Is Edward Tivnan an anti-Semite for writing "The Lobby. Jewish Political Power and American Foreign Policy" (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1987)???

Is J. J. Goldberg an anti-Semite for writing his "Jewish Power. Inside the American Jewish Establishment" (Readinbg, MA: Addision Wesley,1996)?

Or how about Israel Shahak and my friend Norton Mezvinsky for their "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel" (London:Pluto,1999)?

[Patrick Lang]

ALL

Post your thoughts on the issue of US/Israeli communications here and I will link to thisdiscussion on the NJ site. I will also post my own opinion. pl

[David Habakkuk]

An eventual effect of this kind of fatuous accusation is likely to be to destroy the force of the taboo on anti-Semitism, something which it is enormously in the interests of Jews everywhere to maintain. As Anatol Lieven put it, back in 2003:

'Its overuse, whether from cynicism or hysterical conviction, runs the risk of producing a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sooner or later, what should be a charge of crushing seriousness and moral weight will become a mere marketplace insult, and will produce in its targets just a shrug of the shoulders.'

(See http://www.carnegieendowment.org/pdf/files/LievenProspect4_03.pdf.)

[Will]

it does no harm to sit out a debate occassionaly lest one be typecast.

On the other hand, as Tina Fey playing Palin made perfectly clear on SNL, one can answer the question he wants not the one asked.

Whis is Michael Scheuer did. He shrugged off the Journal's metes and bounds as well as the term "Israeli Lobby" and used his own term "Israeli Firsters" and proceeded to hurl some bombs all around. Michael is the former CIA head of "Alec Station," the unit in charge of UBL.

In fact one of his books was recommended by UBL as offering a good explanation why Al Ka?eda fights!

From the Nat Sec Journal
"This is a good question, but the discussion will be feckless if it avoids what the moderator refers to as intimations that may be "ugly." Well, friends, ugly is here and it has been here for decades. There is indeed an identifiable fifth column of pro-Israel U.S. citizens -- I have described them here and elsewhere as Israel-Firsters -- who have consciously made Israel's survival and protection their first priority, and who see worth in America only to the extent that its resources and manpower can be exploited to protect and further the interests of Israel in its religious war-to-the-death with the Arabs. These are disloyal citizens in much the same sense that the Civil War's disloyal northern "Copperheads" sought to help the Confederates destroy the Union."

Read his Wiki bio- short but incendiary.

[Cieran]

I think our host is showing signs of the latest and most important development in US/Israeli relations, that of Semite Fatigue, or SF.

SF occurs when rational and intelligent people tire of listening to the vapid special pleading that characterizes the US voices of the Lieberman Lobby, and choose to remove themselves from the resulting discussions.

In this case, the big loser is the National Journal, which is the poorer because its ill-considered rules for discourse preclude a candid discussion of the problem at hand. The last thing any periodical publication needs in this economic climate is fewer readers, but that's what the Journal will get for its efforts at stifling discourse.

Americans are beginning to show widespread symptoms of Semite Fatigue, and that epidemic of SF will cause serious problems for Israeli interests in the long term.

I have to admit that I'm showing such symptoms myself, in that lately (e.g., post-Gaza), whenever I read anything written by the current crop of Israeli apologists, their blatant exceptionalist pro-Israel/anti-everything-else bias causes one visceral reaction in my body politic, namely an irresistible urge to ask this fundamental question:

... so what part of "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" didn't you understand?

[Bill W, NH, USA]

If you are critical of Israeli policy you are an anti-Semite or, in the case of Jewish people being critical - you are a self-hating Jew. If you are a Ron Paul supporter, then it's Paultard. If Palestinian, you are a less than human animal. On other sites where I've posted I've been called both an anti-Semite and a Paultard, amongst other things. All you can do is to respond by saying that name-calling is a childish endeavor and point out that there's no need to debate with children and move back on to the truth.

[J]

http://www.nlg.org/news/index.php?entry=entry090205-125948

NLG Members in Gaza Document Executions of Civilians, Blocking of Humanitarian Aid, and Destruction of Civil Property

---------------------------

No matter how the Zionist State Of Israel tries to change the subject (charges of Antisemitism, self-hating Jew, etc.), it's all about their inhumanity to their fellow man and their Zionist quest for Totalitarianism rule.

[Leanderthal]

Here's my two cents for your evaluation and consideration. I think we need to fight back.

It's much too easy to forget events that have tragic consequences when the news is full of the newest and latest examples to disturb us. But what the hard line Israel-Centric Lobby did to Charles Freeman should not be so easily relegated to old news.

Here is Glenn Greenwald's important expose' on what happened to Charles Freeman at the hands of what he calls the "Israel-Centric" mob, and even more importantly how that attack bodes ill for the U.S. and it's foreign policy, especially with respect to the Middle East.

Anyone who's even only slightly concerned that to dare to question any of Israel's actions disqualifies one from even appointed positions in American government, should read this in it's entirety, and also read Roger Cohen's most recent columns on Iran, including today's (3/16/09) column, in the New York Times.

The Israel Policy Forum, including the writings of M.J. Rosenberg, is also an important source of moderate and reasonable views and information about Israel and its relationship with the U.S.. Mr. Rosenberg is disturbed that the right wing Israeli point of view gets more attention than the moderate view in the MSM, and that Congress seems regularly to side with right wing, AIPAC backed views as well.

The Israel Lobby, that which backs the hard line Likud party, is a powerful cabal, and it's actions need to be exposed for what they are, a dangerous impingement by a foreign government on American policy.

The scurrilous attack on Charles Freeman is just the latest, but arguably the most scandalous,treatment of any who have had the guts to stand up to those who hold Israel blameless in all things.

I recommend consulting the writings of Roger Cohen, Glenn Greenwald and M.J. Rosenberg, three who brave the fury of the Right Wing faction in Israeli and American politics.

Peace in the Middle East, if it were possible even given the most objective of approaches, is impossible so long as Israel can continue to tie the hands of the American government in formulating open handed policy in the region. Hard line Likud Israel and it's Israel-Centric American Jews and sympathizers are keeping the American fist clenched tight, in spite of Obama's ofter to be open handed if those who oppose Israel will unclench their fists.

This is an irony with tragic consequences.

Leanderthal, Lighthouse Keeper
http://leesvoicecryinginthewilderness.blogspot.com

[William R. Cumming]

Clearly the pro-Israeli elements in the US are driven by fear and "Never Again." This is normal for intelligent and informed people. But the real protection of Israel and its people is not to prohibit free and open discussion. In a democracy (Republic) the facts cannot be hidden forever. The interpretation of those facts will be spun in every which direction. But what has really happened is that it is not debate now that is being censored but facts. That indicates to me an approach and death spiral for all of Israel and its people. It must be willing to withstand the barbs of those that interpret the facts differently than perhaps they would wish. What seem to be facts may not be but it is clear that financial and military props for Israeli are now sacrosanct in the US polity and even question the correctness of those props is discouraged. Also no Israeli action can be criticized by well-meaning people. NO country is always right. Look at US history since WWII and no one who is honest can conclude the the policy should be "My Country Right or Wrong." Hope your commenting and debate continues. Once debate ends watch out because then those who really would like "Never AGain" to be replaced by "Once More But Better" to really come into their own. Majorities can be abusive to minorities, in Israel or the US, so then it is important that limitations on the majority such as legal civil rights and liberties, and open debate not be limited.

[Fred]

"That Obama permitted Freeman to step down so quickly and easily..." That is certainly not my take on the ambassador's withdrawal of his name from consideration.

As for Mr. Goure's appologies to Captain Renault, I seem to remember the good captain packeting his winnings...

[par4]

Call me anything but late for dinner.An expansionist,militaristic Israel is not working.They are going to have to get back inside their recognized borders and the Palastinians have to renounce violence to get an internationaly recognized state.

[ked]

Along with the LA Times article that FP references, I found Gelb's column;
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-03-16/my-dinner-with-fidel/ to be instructive on the dynamics of "nationalist" lobbies.

Light clarifies. I suspect the Zionist lobby is nearing their high-water mark with this little victory. Their incapacity for self-critique or flexability, coupled with faithful certainty & some considerable past success renders them blind to a turning point. Rather, they retreat to an ever-more-hardened position even as the untenability of that course becomes manifest.

I hope you don't retire from this particular fray - our ME policy crys for constructive critique - now more than ever. However, it is St. Patrick's Day, so take a break (& have a Guinness... or 2... &/or a Jameson's... or 2) & (if I may be so bold) afterwards take some more time to reflect upon it all at leisure (well, not The Troubles, that is too much to contemplate in parallel). Slainte!