"Is The Two State Solution Dead?"

http://security.nationaljournal.com/2009/01/after-gaza-is-two-state-solution-dead.php

pl

Comments

[W Dean]

According to Peace Now, an Israeli Human Rights organisation, 1,257 new structures were built in settlements in the West Bank during 2008, compared to 800 in 2007, an increase of 57 percent. http://www.factsontheground.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/peace-now-report-summary-of-construction-in-the-west-bank-2008.pdf>Full Report

This seems to have been going on since Oslo and I really can't see Netanyahu reversing that, if he gets in.

So it seems Israel never was interested in the two state solution.

[confusedponderer]

If anything, settlement expansion will accelerate under Natanyahu.

[Green Zone Cafe]

As long as there is a Palestinian elite willing to feed from the teat of international aid to the PNA, the two state solution will not die.

Whether this is a futile strategy in the face of Israeli settlements and concrete walls is for the Palestinians to decide.

The Israelis are held hostage to their small extremist parties like Avigdor Lieberman's party or other nationalist parties. These parties are given seats in the Knesset through proportional representation with less than 10% of the vote, but can hold the balance of power in coalition governments.

If the Palestinian leadership repudiated the two-state solution, dissolved the PNA and demanded a vote in the Knesset which rules them de facto maybe the Israelis might compromise enough to make the two-state solution possible.

[b]

There never was a two-state solution. It was just some shiny thing to divert the public so the colonization could be continue.

The Likud charter from 1999 as available on www.knesset.gov.il says:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
...
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

[Abu Sinan]

As a reality the two state solution never really existed.

Of course no one can say this because the solution is either a truly democratic state in Palestine/Israel where the state ceases to be Jewish, or the other option is a never ending Aparthied prison state. A large Warsaw ghetto.

[Will]

There's the Likud charter, then there's the Kadima (forward) plan.

Get out of Gaza (b/ make it into an open air prison), divide the West Bank into non contiguous non communicatingBantustans & offer them a "state."

Perhaps Netanyahu would be better for the Filistin (no P in Arabic) daily life.

Eventually the focus will turn from security to one of human rights as happened in South Africa.

[Abu Sinan]

Also, it is important to note that not even the nod to the Irish conflict is a valid one.

That conflict was a "religious" one in name only. I think it was Bernadette Devlin who said something to the affect that no one in Ireland had ever been killed over the articles of faith.

The conflict there was not a religous conflict and would have been fought even if the protanganists were both various brands of Protestants.

[agog]

b raises an important point.

If the Likud charter expressly denies the possibility of a Palestinian state "west of the Jordan river" how can the Hamas charter be criticised for denying the right of Israel to exist? (And why does the MSM not pick up on stuff like this?)

The great and the good (described elsewhere as not our leadership but, rather, our dealership) applaud Shimon Peres at Davos yesterday when he lies to them ("there has been no siege of Gaza"), Turkish PM Erdogan rightly challenges him and returns home to a deserved heros welcome.

We in the "developed world" in contrast have a dealership made up nearly exclusively of moral midgets. In Gaza dead children, bulldozed sewage plants, racist graffiti left on walls (scribble and cry?)...no comment

Boycott, divest,sanction, I say or be complicit.

[castellio]

I understand Israel, it wants the land and will do whatever it needs to get it... Palestinians are an obstacle, not a state in the making.

But the US...??

What is the US doing, other than supporting and funding Israel to succeed in that aim?

[Matthew]

Yes. The two state solution is dead. The United States and Europe always change the rules to protect Israel. Example:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059964.html

[mo]

Colonel,
Is this really the summation of the thinking and the knowledge of the the great and the good in the US? Is it so bad that only the two former members of the inteligence communities (that is to say yourself and Milt Bearden) can actually speak the truth or not couch comments as pro-israeli stance as possible?

Daniel Byman says "The two state solution has been dying since the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007. The recent fighting in Gaza was a further blow, but only one of many."

So no mention of all the settlement building and the blockade of Gaza in between all that?

"This in turn requires a strong U.S. program to build up and professionalize Palestinian Authority security services and otherwise strengthen it at the expense of Hamas. More aid money would help the moderates improve conditions in the West Bank, which they control. (Or, more cynically, it would enable them to buy off more potential opponents and keep their own forces in line.)"

So right after telling us that civil war and endemic corruption of Fatah are the problem and why Hamas is so popular, he proceeds to tell us that arming Dahlans gangs and more corruption will be the solution?

And Mr Chris Seiple's contribution?

"The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the primary prism through which the Muslim world views the United States. "

Us simple Arabs couldn't possibly be sophisticated enough to judge the US by any kind of multi-faceted manner would we? We would barely notice the US supported tin pot dictators and kings that opress and repress the Arab world.

And Loren Thompson, with an analogy that thinly tries to hide the propogation of the age old "land without a people...blah blah" with the line "all those displaced Dakotans would soon start rediscovering their lost roots and launch a crusade for a return to their ancestral lands". So even US citizens would have been treated like the Palestinians by Mr Thompson had the homeland been Dakota?

Oh and Mr Ron Marks' wonderful "Governing means worrying about health care, roads, water, etc.". Well Mr Marks, thats the thing about blockades. They ensure you don't need to waste time worrying about things you cannot provide!

I could go through so much else but I do not think it would be appropriate. However special mention but cramming as much ignorance into a single posting has to go Sen. Kit Bond, Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee no less. Why am I not surprised that the person with the most sway of all in regards to US Govt. also has the most one sided, uninformed take on the subject?

First he sasy we are to look at the Camp David accords for what happens when both parties are commited to peace. Ok good start, but he follows it up with "Hamas has of yet failed to convince anyone that peace is their ultimate goal. " Wait, what?

Hamas dont have to convince anyone that peace is their goal. They are the occupied; the oppressed. Unlike israel, they have an internationally accepted RIGHT to resist the occupation.

Mr Bond can start questioning Hamas's goals when the israelis have shown that peace is their ultimate goal.

Mr Bond should also be aware that Egypt signed a deal because israel vacated ALL of Sinai, not some parts of it where they didn't have settlements.

"Since Israel left Gaza in August of 2005, Hamas has fired 6,300 rockets at Israeli civilians killing and wounding innocent civilians since 2005."

Colonel, perhaps since you have the access you can let Mr Bond know that Israel has no more left Gaza than the wardens who patrol a prison from the outside have left a prison. Perhaps you could also let him know, since he has missed it, that Israel fired more rockets and shells into Gaza in less than a month of fighting than the Gazans have fired since 2005. he may also be interested to know that the Israelis were doing their fair share of direct and indirect killing in that time. But I don't think we should mention anything about the civilians since it seems that to him only the Israeli ones are innocent and count.

Again its good that you and Milt Bearden are there to provide honest ananlysis rather than pandering uniformed arguments.

Specifically, in regards to your comments Colonel, they reminded me of a sketch I saw last week, where a voice shouts "Surrender!" from an Israeli tank, turret pointing at a few Palestinian fighters. The Palestinin fighters respond with "Good. We accept!".

[William RAISER]

Yes, the two-state solution is dead. Israel killed it some time ago. Now we need to grow up and demonstrate a willingness and ability to tolerate, enjoy and celebrate diversity across a wide social-cultural spectrum.

[Bill]

Indeed, the two-state solution is dead. It's been dead for the last few years, but it's interesting that suddenly prominent people are starting to notice.

Even if Israel wanted to make a deal in the West Bank, physically removing the settlers in the West Bank would cost more Israeli bloodshed (and far more internal trauma) than leaving them there and repressing the Palestinians for another decade or two. With a choice like that, Israel will never leave.

Israel still holds out hope of a two-state solution, but with the second state being Gaza rather than Palestine. Even if this were to succeed (and Hamas works to ensure it won't), such a sucess would only delay the Israeli problem, not remove it. Israel will still have to deal with the massive and grouping Arab population demanding rights, rather than independence. And the internal struggle for rights never _can_ be given up. The next generation will always continue it.

Israel doesn't really have a way out at this point.

[J]

All,

Don't forget Israel's greater Israel expansion goals that gobbles up parts of Iraq in addition to the Palestinian lands.

[Jose]

"Is The Two State Solution Dead?"

Was it ever really alive?

The United States and Europe never really wanted peace, because Israel was treated as equals while the Palestinians were treated as unequals.

Of all the initiatives, road maps, etc. which were ever really enforced concerning intransigent Israelis?

Forget a one-state solution, with equal rights for all, Palestinians are not equals in the West.

The best they will get are three or four cantons or reservations like the Native-Americans in the United States with periodic punishment pogroms like what recently happened in Gaza.

Remember, the Neocons promised the road to peace in Jerusalem lies through Baghdad, now they are claiming it lies through Tehran.

After Tehran, no need to negotiated when you can dictate terms unilaterally.

“Delay is the deadliest form of denial.” - C. Northcote Parkinson

[jamzo]

i am pleased to hear your voice in the public dialogue

[LeaNder]

Good News:

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/01/what-weve-know-all-along-database-implicates-israeli-government-in-settlement-land-grab.html#comments>Database implicates Israeli government in settlement land grab. Take a look at the partial translation. Highly interesting.

Israeli's NGO monitor has http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/yesh_din_volunteers_for_human_rights>Yesh Din on its radar.

[Will]

KIt Bond- the Senator from Mexico. Mexico, MO.

He;s not standing for re-election, so he could have certainly given more balanced remarks, i.e. Israel broke the Hamas truce. The rockets are their deterrent power, They are in an open air prison, blockaded by air, land, and sea, by an occupying power, and so on.

[Babak Makkinejad]

All:

I would like to remind everyone that I had announced the death of the 2-state solution more than a year ago on this forum.

[Clifford Kiracofe]

The "two-state solution" has always been a fraud based upon the mistaken partition of historic Palestine by the UN.

The Zionist state ("Israel") will demographically shift to majority Palestinian Arab (Muslim and Christian) given current trends. This is unless there is a genocidal mass expulsion of Arabs by the Zionist state, called "transfer" by some. I do not put this past the Zionist establishment in "Israel" as Gaza is an indicator.

The 19th century colonial project of the British Empire (Palmerston beginning 1839) and later Central European "Ashkenazi" Jews would appear to be running out of time.

Given the consequences of the Zionist project, Rabbi Judah Magnes was farsighted and correct, IMO, in his vision of a "bi-national" state, one state in which all live together.

Seems to me US strategic planning should now focus on an eventual one-state "solution."

Logically, all Palestinians who have been dispossessed have not only a right to return but also a legal right to restitution. SST reading lawyers can perhaps braoden our understanding of restitution as applied to the Holy Land case. On restitution see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restitution

[Will]

Per Kiracofe's comment about Transfer, it is possible. Human rights does not advance linearly, nonwithstanding the 4th Geneva Conventions.

Just witness Dubya/Cheney bringing back torture, or the Israeli history in Lebanon, the West Bank, & of course Gaza.

I was watching a doc on PBS on the first successful slave rebellion in modern times associated with Toussaint Louverture. Few know that the radicals of the French Revolution abolished slavery, b/ the dictator Bonaparte betrayed the revolution and tried to reinstate it.

Imperial troops invaded Haiti, Toussaint died in a cold jail in France b/ his lieutenant Dessalines vanquished the French. Some fifty-thousand French troops died needlessly.

Perhaps the Israelis will be humbled as Napoleon by those they consider lesser beings.

[JTCornpone]

The two state solution is pretty well dead. The apartheid stage of the one state solution appears to be operational in the territories. The Israelis may be test driving the final solution in Lebanon and Gaza. From the reaction of the rest of the world so far it would seem to be a go.

JT

[barrisj]

Bob Simon's segment on "60 Minutes" last Sunday said it all, as Israelis interviewed called for virtually an ethnically cleansed "Greater Israel", and what with rabid rightists and racists such as Avigdor Lieberman and Bibi
Netanyahu, the settler parties, et al seemingly poised to assume power in the next government, the outcome can only be a reinforced Afrikaaner-style apartheid. "Two-state solution" died at Oslo, though most of those slapping each other on the back (largely in Europe and US) didn't see it that way at the time. Israeli hawks saw the opening and took it, laying down the foundation of "facts on the ground", and here we are today, still futilely applying shock paddles upon a moribund corpse. The bulk of non-Arab Israelis think that the IDF didn't go far enough in Gaza, as sentiment only just short of "exterminate Hamas and all its followers" loudly prevails now...how in God's name can anyone even suggest negotiating a "two-state" solution amidst such a crescendo of mutual hatred? And, no, this is not Northern Ireland during "the Troubles" sort of analogy, though many wishful thinkers somehow believe that George Mitchell can resurrect some of his magic on display back in the day. Won't happen, as no bold stroke is available to undo the Gordian knot of "right of return", full stop.

[Alex]

For all those who say the two-state solution is dead, read Uri Avnery The Devil's Hoof. The link only gives the most recent column by Avnery, and you have to click on "more..." in the right column.

His point is that if a one-state solution is chosen, the Israelis will simply grab Palestinian land legally, and no-one can complain.

[barrisj]

"Alex"...I'm a great admirer of Uri Avnery and all that he has written on and spoken about Israel's self-defeating policies in the Occupied Territories, but even he realises that the pendulum has swung so far to the right, that there can be no "self-correction" within Israeli politics, and that external pressure must be brought to bear in order to forcibly reorientate current public opinion vis-a-vis accommodation with the Palestinians. But, as things stand now, the best that can be hoped for in re: a "two-state" solution is a fragmented cantonisation of Palestinian towns, separated - indeed, isolated - from one another by checkpoints, "the Wall", Israeli-only motorways, and suffering from losses of valuable agricultural land and water. What kind of a "state" is this? More like SA apartheid-era "homelands", basically concentration camps without the guards, with "pass laws" controlling ingress and egress. Who amongst the Palestinian peoples would accept this?