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17 October 2008

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WP

The issue of shills is all over the election. Perhaps, the ACORN contraversy is also a matter of plants. It appears that an organization like ACORN is required by federal law to submit ALL voter registrations applications it receives, even if the organization believes them to be fraudulent. Did Republican operatives submit a bunch of the "fraudulent" voter registration applicattions to ACORN or plant their own solicitors in ACORN for the purpose of setting ACORN up for political purposes?

It seems highly unlikely that Mickey Mouse would ever show up to vote with the government issued ID required to cast a ballot.

Many of the purported "frauds" that are the subject of so much media attention may, themselves, be the real fraud!

David W.

Or is he just a 'useful idiot?' I don't wish to knock on Joe the person, and I am feeling for him (parodied in a SNL skit in less than 24 hours has got to be a new record), however, when someone puts themself forward as something they are not (a la Jeff Gannon), then they open themselves up for scrutiny.

To recap the salient facts, Joe is not even a licensed plumber, his 'plan' to buy the business is based on a few vague wishful talks with his boss, he has a tax lien on his home, and no loan collateral. Even at the height of the loan frenzy, I don't think this guy would have getting any loan to buy the business.

Furthermore, regarding his purported opposition to Obama's tax plan, he made $40k in 2006, and the plumbing business only grosses $100k a year, so he's not even close to hitting the magic $250k of net profit paid as income (somebody needs to explain the difference between gross and net to the McCain crowd).

Of course Joe isn't very happy about all of this, however, per the previous post, the Republicans have turned taxes into a wedge issue, and 'class war in reverse' by tricking people like Joe into supporting the economic interests of people like Rick Davis. Nobody likes to pay taxes, however, Joe's righteous indignation belies his true economic position.

Now, if you want a real plumber's position, ask the plumber's union (UA), which Joe is not even a member of--they were the first union to give Obama an endorsement, and have rightfully blasted McCain's hoary economic ideas.

William R. Cumming

Joe's balloon already popped. Not a liscensed plumber. Just another American posing as qualified for jobs for which he is paid and probably not. Ever wonder about the training the Wall Street traders received? Ever wondered why Senators and Governors think they are fully qualified to be President? Job resume fraud is skyrocketing.

Binh

According to the media follow-up, he doesn't have a plumbing license, he admitted he doesn't currently make 250k, wants the borders closed, thinks it was right to "take the fight to them" in Iraq WMDs be damned, hates that Social Security is "forced" on him and would rather be free to invest his money on the stock market (!!!) as he sees fit.

To me, this guy is a living, breathing anachronism - he's very out of sync with where the rest of the country is at at the moment, politically and economically. He seems like part of the demographically shrinking, demoralized Republican "base" that McCain is fighting so hard to hold on to, even if it costs him the votes of independents and moderates.

Listening to him talk and looking at the details that are coming up about him, I doubt he's a Rick Davis plant. Then again, they picked Palin, so I guess anything's possible.

condfusedponderer

The points he brought out when asked to what he thinks about Obama sounded well in-synch with GOP message. Now one might get there from incessantly listening to right-wing talk-radio when plumbing.

Still, as a whole he IMO sounded 'un-plumber-ish'.

That bit about taxes just sounded like an 'entry' to me. With an income of less than $250,000 he would not be subject to any tax increase under Obama. Joe just doesn't like taxes and thinks taxes are a "slippery slope" and arbitrary? Maybe just some vague, brooding paranoia, much like the distrustfulness of Col Guano from Dr. Strangelove. Or plain ol' fearmongering - Obama will tax you into poverty is a GOP theme.

It really got interesting with the Cathy Couric interview, where he kept re-iterating this line: I don't know who Obama is, but I know who John McCain is - another GOP campaign theme. Fearmongering again.

What struck me as the oddest thing of them all was the line about Obama tap dancing a lot like Sammy Davis Jr. For one it sounded crypto-racist to me. Also it depicts Obama as a ... show dancer, a guy with grace but without substance?

Your average working class Joe, or Joe the Plumber doesn't speak that way. Thus I vote for plant.

sbj

Colonel,

Sadly, where you say:

"Look closely boys and girls of the media. That is what you are paid for.";

I suspect that, in reality, too often members of the press are paid to NOT look too closely.

HSDell

It looks like someone did take a closer look.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp

bstr

Joe the Plumber,was not a plant. No need for him to be a plant. Recall the affinity felt by Dick Nixon for plumbers. But why is Joe and so many Joes like him afraid of a tax increase? According to one source, should Joe earn $280,000.00 he would pay only $773.00 more in taxes under Obama then under McCain. When one considers the options that being a part of the American commons offers Joe, why is he so resentful of paying his fair share? We have two, possibly three wars, neighborhoods are suffering from the downward trend brought by foreclosures, and we continue to support disaster areas. Joe all of this is expensesive, Help comes in the form of taxation. Not helping is more expensive. In a very real sense all of this is for your benefit. We are in this boat together, get a grip.

Nicholas Weaver

I think there is enough evidence now to show that

a: Sam the plumber's appearance was not a plant. Obama was in the area, and Sam, a generic republican took the opportunity.

b: Someone in Team McCain decided that the appearance of Sam the Plumber was worth expoliting, without doing the proper research to determine that

1) He's a tax cheat, with a $1200 outstanding tax bill.

2) His claim of higher taxes is almost certainly ridiculous

3) He's not undecided, but a solid red-republican

4) He's not a liscenced plumber

5) He may even be related to Charles Keating.


So I think its clear: Sam the plumber is real, and his response was real (and driven from ignorance, most likely), but the McCain camp decided to sieze on this narrative without researching Sam, just like they never researched Sarah Palin.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/16/MNQ013J6JV.DTL&type=politics&tsp=1

Tom S

Well, for starters, "Joe" is not a licensed plumber, he owes back taxes, and is a registered Republican.

jamzo

this from a blog was reported by keith obermann last night

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

"Joe “the Plumber” Wurzelbacher related to Charles “the Crook” Keating. Oops.
October 15th, 2008 . by Marty
John McCain did great tonight in the debate. But every time John mentioned “Joe the Plumber,” some of us in the campaign banged our heads against the wall. If Steve Schmidt had any hair left, I hear he would have been pulling it out tonight. He reportedly screamed at John’s debate prep team tonight (out of earshot of reporters, of course). “You idiots - he’s related to Charles Keating… of the Keating Five scandal!” They thought they had a real live Joe Six-Pack who’s spurned Barack Obama’s tax plan. But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher’s background.

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years."

JohnH

So "Joe" might be a "plant," a "shill," a "ringer," etc. In other words, is Joe the Plumber a plumber or could he be a White House Plumber?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Plumbers

Cold War Zoomie

Funny you should mention Oman. I am re-reading The Irish War by Tony Geraghty and he frequently refers to SAS troops coming from Oman to Northern Ireland.

Any personal experience there?

As for Joe, I paraphrase...will no one rid me of this meddlesome election coverage?

Curious

Joe the plumber is just a goofball. He seems to quickly realize the internet is about to chew him up and spit him to pieces.

He start spinning and backtracking. (He even say, Obama will reduce his tax burden under his proposal. ... duh)

Strudel & Shotguns

Joe also lived in Arizona and ... wait for it ... Alaska.
Link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/16/MNQ013J6JV.DTL&type=politics&tsp=1

Mark Logan

Yes they should earn their pay. It's high time the started too.

Unfortunately, that NYT piece didn't "get 'er done", as a true plumber might put it. There are some "plumbers" who own major constrution contracting businesses, or have many trucks working for them in the repair business that may reel
in a quarter mill a year. But that residential plumber in a small Ohio town he would have to NET $120 an hour and have to average eight billable hours a day for the year.
This is extremely unlikely for our friend Joe. In fact
I would guess him to be around the $50K range of salary if typical of many that I know in simular situations.

There is no doubt Obamas
policys would serve him better towards his goal of saving enough to
"go it alone". I think there is one lesson that "Joe" can teach us: Many people are still very poorly informed.


PS: What's the picture?

looseleaf

That is Gustave Dore's caricature of the Baron von Munchhausen, notorious fabulist, incorrigible (involuntary)confabulator, or person of wonderful great imagination, depending on one's perspective.

condfusedponderer

Thinking about it, David B. is probably correct in saying that Joe is just a useful idiot to the McCain campaign. Probably, when he came along, they simply jumped on the opportunity took him and spun him and his narrative relentlessly.

Crazy Eddie

The discussion of Joe being a plant is rendered more than a little ludicrous when you remember that Joe was in his own front yard when Barack Obama approached him. By all accounts, he's only voted a few times before, may be Republican but is not especially politically active, and was - quite literally - a random Joe Sixpack. And now, because he was there when Barack Obama embarrassed himself with a poorly worded answer, he must be tracked, investigated, vetted, and removed. All for the crime of standing in his yard playing football with his son.

Don't bother replying - I'm done reading this weblog. If this is the tone of the author and the commenters, you and I are coming from very different places.

Patrick Lang

All

"Joe was in his own front yard when Barack Obama approached him"

Is this true? pl

condfusedponderer

Joe went to him. From the Couric interview:

“Obama came to my neighborhood and my son and I were outside tossing the football, and all of a sudden he showed up, and there went our football tossing for a while. And, you know, neighbors were outside asking him questions, and I didn’t think they were asking him tough enough questions, so I thought, you know, I’ll go over there...

Curious

The company McCain said the plumber wants to buy has annual sales of $510,000, according to an analysis by Dun & Bradstreet. That makes it unlikely that Wurzelbacher's purchase would give him a taxable income of more than $200,000 -- leaving him unaffected by Obama's proposal to roll back tax breaks for those earning more than $250,000, said Steven Bankler, a certified public accountant in San Antonio, who counts plumbers and other trade professionals as his clients....

If Wurzelbacher managed to earn $280,000, ``he's not an average Joe Six-Pack,'' said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the Tax Foundation.

``Rather than a game-changing blow for the McCain campaign, `Joe the plumber' is turning into a bad case of blowback,'' said Rogan Kersh, a public service professor at New York University.

The underlying problem here is two-fold. First, Joe is a conservative Republican who tried to pull a fast-one. He doesn't currently earn anywhere near the $250,000 adjusted gross income necessary to see a tax increase under Obama's plan. And what's worse, Joe's excuse - that he might buy his boss's plumbing business, and THEN he'd face higher taxes - is also now proven untrue. You see, the limit in Obama's plan under which you aren't taxed isn't $250,000, as the Obama campaign keeps incorrectly telling people. The limit is much higher. That's because the $250,000 isn't based on your total income, it's based on your TAXABLE income AFTER deductions. That means, in Joe's case, he can make the $510,000 his future business is currently earning, but after deductions, he's only making $200,000 - and that would exempt him from a tax increase under Obama's plan.

As for Joe's final excuse, that Obama might change his mind and start taxing people making $100,000 a year - uh, well, McCain might change his mind and start taxing people making $20,000 a year. It's an idiotic point. Joe is pretty much a fraud. And McCain, kind of an idiot.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/bloomberg-joe-plumbers-new-business.html

TR Stone

Even Peggy Noonan is against the GOP
http://online.wsj.com/public/page/news-opinion-commentary.html.

GOTV-Good luck to us all!

TR Stone

I used the wrong link- use this one-
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122419210832542317.html

TR Stone

Don't pimp on this guy---he is America!!!!!

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