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11 May 2008

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arbogast

Could someone tell me how many states there are the world that whose entire identity and raison d'etre is a religion?

The great irony is that our country should be the staunchest supporter of a country founded on religious intolerance.

Babak Makkinejad

"You can't trust anyone." is quite apt in connection with Jews – a comparison with the Irish in US is irrelevant since Irish are nominally Christian and the possibility of inter-marriage between Irish and others exists. Nor were the historical experiences of any other group of people – to my knowledge - approximates that of the Jews – except perhaps the Africans in Congo de Belgique in the 19-th century during the reign of King Leopold of Belgium and his Government.

The sentiment behind "You can't trust anyone." is distantly echoed among African-Americans: "The Black Tax", etc.

The do-gooders who wish Israel and Jews well are best advised to put their collective efforts into strengthening the legal and constitutional framework of the United States - the only protection that Jews and assorted other minority people who insist on remaining separate have.

One nit: the State of Israel is not “the Jewish State”; otherwise it could have called itself “The Hebraic Republic of Palestine”, the “Judaic State of Palestine” or some such combination. No, that state lays claim to be Judaism & the Jewish People; i.e. every time “Shema Israel…” is invoked the person is now addressing the “State of Israel”. I cannot emphasize this enough: it is like a Christian state calling itself “Corpus Christi” or “The Church” or a Muslim State calling itself “The Ummah”.

Montag

Even their vaunted "Birthright Tours" aren't all they're cracked up to be. By one estimate only 33% of the young American Jews who are given the dog & pony show become pro-Israel. Another 33% remain apathetic, while the last 33% actually become anti-Israel! Apparently they measure one-size-fits-all-or-else Israel by U.S. multicultural standards and find the Zionist Paradise wanting.

For instance, here in the U.S. you don't need to be board-certified by the government as a Jew in order to get married. Since there are no Civil Marriages in Israel that can be a problem. But when Massachusetts Governor James Curley tried to ban Civil Marriages in the 1930s he became a laughingstock. As one newspaper opined, "Even Atheists have the right to marry."

R.L.

Controversial Israeli policies are turning off younger American Jews.Seems like a hopeful thing to me.

JohnH

Actually, the "you can't trust anyone" meme is just an exquisite implementation of fear mongering. The main beneficiary is the government of Israel, that small group of insiders who periodically play musical chairs with each other to divvy up cabinet positions. Peace is very threatening to the incompetent, corrupt Israeli leadership and their sinecures.

W. Patrick Lang

Babak

Do you really live in the USA? The greatest "threat" faced by those Jews who wish to remain apart in the USA is intermarriage.

Ask them. pl

Dan Pasternak

The assimilation of the Jews in Diaspora is the second holocaust. What a shame. What a cowardly. What an escape from responsibility. What treason in themselves. What treason in their brothers that left them fewer, weaker in their struggle to survival. I DESPISE YOU.

W. Patrick Lang

pasternak

Is it the Jews of the diaspora that you despise or is it just everyone in general? pl

Leila  Abu-Saba

People interested in this thread ought to read Philip Weiss' blog, Mondo Weiss. He is a big advocate for assimilation and a persistent critic of those Americans who slavishly support Israel over the interests of the USA.

Mr. Weiss frequently discusses issues of dual loyalty and assimilation.

He has also recently discovered the Nakba and covers changing media attitudes towards the subject.

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/

Paul Hartvigson, Denmark

Dan Pasternak,

I claim my right not to follow the faith of my fathers. I'm lucky to live in a country where that was possible.

My Jewish great-grandfather converted to Lutheranism. The family was just lucky enough to live in Denmark, where the jews weren't deported by the nazis 50 years later.

In other countries the holocaust was for converted and assimilated jews and descendants as well. So I understand the "trust no-one" bit. And there are some reasons I can't just be flip about Israel. And certainly not fall into the trap of despising anyone.

Someone who had a personal stake in Israel is Swedish Writer Göran Rosenberg, who had an immigrant youth in Israel 1847-1961. Unfortunately his book on Israel "The Lost Land - a personal narrative" isn't in English, but some of his articles can be found here:

http://www.rosenberg.se/biografieng.htm

mo

Ah that old Zionist myth of the Diaspora, expelled from there homeland and now returning to the Promised Land. Except of course its a total fabrication that never happened. But don't let that trouble your sensibilities Pasternak.

William R. Cumming

American Jews may love Israel but have no real wish to live in a Sparta!
The next 100 years and not the first 60 will be the most crucial to Israel's survival. Unfortunately, like the US they appear to be without real leaders that have a vision that might be successful over the next 100 years and make for a strong base for the next 100. Should the US adopt a policy of no-dual citizenship which I recommend the stress on Israel would be enormous. Why?

Seymour Samuels

I agree with Pat’s conclusions “I am not surprised that young Jewish Americans are not so gullible as to cower before the fears of their ancestors. They have looked around them and have seen that there is no need.” However, I think some other commenters need to understand the historical context of the “You can’t trust anyone” mentality.

Taking a view of the way the world was in the in the late 1940s and 1950s. Leo Frank was lynched in Marietta Georgia about 35 years before - about one generation. Private facilities such as country clubs and Fraternities were restricted so Jews had to found their own. Great universities of the Ivy League would not admit Jews. In New York City I was denied a room in a hotel room because the hotel was “restricted” even though I was wearing my VMI cadet uniform.

When WW2 ended and the true extent of the extermination camps was reveled there was a great impact on American Jews. There was also an influx of Holocaust survivors into the American Jewish community. Each had their numbered arm and horror story. The founding of the State of Israel gave some people an outlet to say “Only in Israel are we safe.” Because Israel seemed to be a safe haven, there was an understanding that Jews could not publicly criticize Israel. Those who did were ostracized by many members of the greater Jewish community.

I think, for whatever reason, many Jews have gone over to the “warts and all” philosophy. We can criticize (or at least discuss some of the uncomfortable truths about) Israel.

As an American Jew (family fought on both sides of the Civil War, WW 2, Viet Nam) I think the ability to criticize Israel is a positive thing.

Dan Pasternak

I DESPISE THE JEWS THAT ARE ASSIMILATORS.

Babak Makkinejad

arbogast:

Iran exists because of Shia Religion.

J

Colonel,

while individuals like hagee, olmert, peres and others were celebrating israel's 60th, others (including u.s. and other anti-zionist jews from around the world) were mourning 60 years of the nakba persecution, murder,apartheid, and ethnic cleansing of the palestnian people. anti-zionist orthodox and other conservative and reform jews have repeatedly said that israel is supposed to be created by a higher power than man, and that 'zionism' is a work of evil and is unclean and anti-torah/bible.

see:
http://www.nkusa.org/
Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

there are numerous protests against the existing state israel by u.s. jews that the mainstream media refuses to show to the american people as the msm are bought and sold by zionists. ant-zionist jews maintain that judisim and zionism are an anathema to one another. anti-zionist jews protest at israeli consulates, trade representative spots, and their embassasy in the u.s., and are documented in both video and photo easily located on the web.

Babak Makkinejad

Col. Lang:

I respectfully disagree. The NAZIs went after people with Jewish ancestors as well as the converts.

Inter-marriage is a threat to the group identity but not a threat to the physical well-being of an individual.

jonst

Dan P provides me with one more small, very small, reminder of why it is I am glad I am an atheist.

Montag

There's an excellent book about Irish-Catholic identity politics and how it evolved, "The Rascal King: The Life and Times of James Michael Curley (1874-1958)" by Jack Beatty, 1992. Curley built his political career on waving the Green Shamrock Flag and rabble-rousing the Boston voters. For a time they believed that electing a corrupt Irish Mayor who would dispense patronage jobs to them was the way to go. But as they rose into the Middle Class the Irish-Catholics began to share the attitudes of the Episcopalian Brahmins, that having an honest, efficient city government with low property taxes was the way to go. They stopped voting for Curley because he had become an embarrassment to them. They came to agree with one of his political opponents that, "Nothing Curley is straight."

Nancy K

I believe many Jews are fearful, and with good reason if one looks at history. However I think their government like ours, capitalizes on that fear and in fact stokes it. A fearful people can be motivated to do all types of horrible things they would not normally do. Look at the US and the camps the Japanese Americans were put into. Look at Germany under Hitler. Look at the deplorable conditions the Palestinian people are forced to live under.
I believe people in the US and I hope Isralis are waking up to the truth that the only thing to fear is fear itself.

Michael

Question - "Could someone tell me how many states there are the world that whose entire identity and raison d'etre is a religion?"

Answer: The Vatican City State, definitely.

Arguably perhaps Bhutan, Saudi Arabia, The Islamic Republic of Iran, Taliban Afghanistan until the invasion, and maybe Pakistan.

Peg

Col. Lang,

I read your blog to get info that I don't get anywhere else.

This question is off topic, but I'd like to know what your opinion is on THIS opinion piece in the NYT today, "President Apostate?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html?ref=opinion

Thank you,
Peg

Walrus

I detest all religions equally. The evil they do seems to outweigh their charity.

Green Zone Cafe

The play/movie/radio show Abie's Irish Rose, about a Jewish man/Irish woman couple, was a dominating hit from the 1920s through the 40s.

America is the great assimilator and miscegenator - in that way it is a threat to strongly varigated cultures and "races."

Still, it will be a long time before everyone looks like Vin Diesel, The Rock, Halle Berry or Rae Dawn Chong.

Also, here's an interesting piece by Christopher Hitchens on Israel:

Can Israel Survive for Another 60 Years? Perhaps, but not necessarily as a Jewish state.

Cold War Zoomie

Panken says the questioning is in a sense, just typically American. "I think it's sort of the ultimate application of American individualism. Everyone gets to decide what they believe, and just because your parents cared about something doesn't mean you will."

As generations pass, the "mother land's" culture slips away. The third generation of x-American usually has completely assimilated into American life compared to their immigrant grandparents, having abandoned everything but maybe the religious traditions and a few cultural tidbits. As an example, Scots-Americans may have a few occasions to don a kilt and think their Scottish for a day but they truly are American deep down. (Nothing wrong with drinking whiskey and tossing a caber here and there, though!) A quick trip to Scotland will drive that fact home.

Perhaps the American Jews have been able to hang on longer for a variety of reasons. But it is inevitable - any emotional connection to Israel will dissipate more and more with each generation.

Israel better be thinking of what to do within the next couple of decades.

It would be interesting to see if support for the IRA dried up in Boston and New York as the old-timers faded away. Did the second and third generation of Irish-Americans care that much about The Troubles? Did that force the peace process forward?

There might be parallels.

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