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22 April 2008

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TomB

Col. Lang wrote:

"The Mossad or whichever Israeli agency was involved have long and tragic histories of using Jewish citizens of other countries to spy on their governments. That is a most irresponsible thing to do."

You know, given the clear long-time truth of this, including especially the obvious lesson learned early in Israel's history with the Lavon affair exposing so many Egyptian jews to terrible repercussions, you have to wonder if it's "irresponsibility" at work at all.

That is, I have read that right from the inception of zionism there has been a very strong strain amongst some of its most ardent folks that very much looks down on diaspora jews for not moving to Israel. "To be a 'true' jew you should be here, sharing our risks" and etc., etc.

So maybe to these folks it's not an entirely undesirable thing if one of their spies has to be discovered that the spy be jewish. Maybe it's just a terrible cynicism at work on their part toward diaspora jews.

After all, what's the reaction when it's found out that some diaspora jew has spied against their home country? Almost certainly at least some of it is going to be genuinely anti-semitic in that home country, and regardless of what precise portion isn't none of it is going to make jews in that country feel especially comfortable.

So look at it from the standpoint of the "fundamentalists": They get the result of the spying, and then even if the spy is caught they get the reaction in those countries which can only tend to estrange that country's jews from their society of choice given that they have no choice really. Since they can't hardly renounce their jewishness, how else are they supposed to feel?

So if the revelations about such spying harms the diaspora folks, well it might be thought, it's just showing the true anti-semitic nature of these other countries and is just the price the diaspora folks pay for not joining the "true-blue" who have stepped up to the plate and moved to Israel.

Perfect in a deeply cynical way, but as I said I have read some very very bare-knuckle statements allegedly made by ardent zionists about jews who won't move to Israel. And I seem to remember Ariel Sharon not that long ago rather blatantly saying to French jews that all of 'em damn well should be moving to Israel.

Good reason to be intellectually careful when thinking about this it seems to me. The vast majority of our fellow jewish-American countrymen would never spy against us for Israel. And it may well be that when does, anyone going overboard about it only plays into the hands of those "fundamentalists" who don't mind at all if we are making those countrymen feel uncomfortable.

Of course the trouble is defining what is "going overboard," and I certainly don't think that promiscuous charges of anti-semitism ought to determine the answer, nor that questioning the wisdom of allowing dual citizenship goes over that line either. (Although I would be interested if DaveGood could cite some authority for the list of supposed dual-citizens he posted above.) I'm just trying to think through the dynamics of the situation.


Cheers,

kevin

http://judicial-inc.biz/84vmossad_in_america.htm

on another note....

http://www.jewishquarterly.org/article.asp?articleid=38

“Some porn stars viewed themselves as frontline fighters in the spiritual battle between Christian America and secular humanism. According to Ford, Jewish X-rated actors often brag about their ‘joy in being anarchic, sexual gadflies to the puritanical beast’. Jewish involvement in porn, by this argument, is the result of an atavistic hatred of Christian authority: they are trying to weaken the dominant culture in America by moral subversion. Astyr remembers having ‘to run or fight for it in grammar school because I was a Jew. It could very well be that part of my porn career is an “up yours” to these people’. Al Goldstein, the publisher of Screw, said (on lukeford.net), ‘The only reason that Jews are in pornography is that we think that Christ sucks. Catholicism sucks. We don’t believe in authoritarianism.’ Pornography thus becomes a way of defiling Christian culture and, as it penetrates to the very heart of the American mainstream (and is no doubt consumed by those very same WASPs), its subversive character becomes more charged."

;)

DaveGood

Larry K.

Sir,

Am I certain that if a search was done of everyone on that list homes you'd find an Israeli passport?

No, I'm not.

But then search every Americans home and you'd find only one in five hold an American passport.

They are still American citizens, and think of themselves as such.

People named on that list have lived in Israel, done work for and been paid by the Israeli Right wing Likud Party.

If any of them wanted to obtain a formal Israeli passport do you doubt it would not be granted instantly?


DaveGood

harper

Thank you, again, Col. Lang, for presenting some simple truths that illuminate the picture. Yes, the Israelis have abused Jewish citizens of many countries, first of all, the United States, for spying. Mr. Kadish was born in the United States, but spent some considerable time living in Palestine, fought in the Jewish legion of the British Army during World War II and then joined the Haganah. If he was only first recruited in 1970 to spy for Israel, that is about the only surprising thing in the published story to date. How many more such people were recruited over the decades?

I take heart that there is a cumulative educational process unfolding on this issue. We had the Pollard affair and then, as you indicate, a long dry spell, while investigators from various U.S. intelligence services quietly did their work, ultimately reaching a point where they could move against some other points in the network. We saw the Larry Franklin case, the arrests of the two AIPAC officials, Rosen and Weissman, who were scheduled to start their trial this week, but it has been delayed. Now we have the Kadish case, and the prospect seems to be bright that more of the "Mega" or "X Committee" network is going to be rolled up. Hopefully, some of the more prominent figures will be identified and prosecuted. We also have the Walt and Miersheim book, which would have never come out of Harvard and the University of Chicago hallowed halls just a few years ago. There is clearly a learning curve here, and I think it bodes well over time, that US foreign and national security policy will be restored to some sovereignty. I sometimes wonder whether the demons are in Israel, or in the United States, where a whole lot of people have developed a real expertise for using the threat of Israeli clout to shape the U.S. political process to their advantage--which often works at cross-purposes to the interests of Israel. I remember Yitzhak Rabin's visit to AIPAC when he first became prime minister in 1992. He scolded them for functioning as a lobby for the Likud crowd in Israel and the neocons in the United States. Rabin saw that apparatus as at odds with Israeli interests, and he battled them. You know the rest of that story.

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