« Turkey, Hadith and the Gate of Ijtihad | Main | Why do we keep fiddling with Lebanon? »

29 February 2008

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

lina

I have no idea if Rev. Hagee has any redeeming qualities. I do know that when John McCain ran for president in 2000, he called Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell ``agents of intolerance'' who ``shame our faith, our party and our country.''

I'd like to know what happened to that John McCain in the subsequent 7 years.

777 Guy

Col. Lang,
Mr. Hagee and "apostate church" brought to mind a bus ride into town from O'Hare 30 years ago. A flight attendant sitting next to me was intently studying the Bible. That was pretty unusual and she was good looking so I struck up a conversation. In the course of it, I recall being astonished when she stated that Roman Catholics weren't Christians. I spent the rest of the ride pedantically giving her a short course on Christianity. It was, I'm sure, to no avail. I belong to a Denomination that has had it"s differences with the Roman Catholic Church since good King Henry VIII, however the notion that the Church was not Christian was too absurd for words. In retrospect, that was my first, but not last, encounter with "born again", "holy roller", "fundamentalist", or "Pentecostal" beliefs. They continue to strike me as absurd, but I'm no longer surprised by the statements of Hagee and his ilk.
777Guy

Kevin

Were the priests Jesuits?

W. Patrick Lang

Kevin

No. They were other kinds of regular clergy. pl

Leila Abu-Saba

Reminds me of the long ago days in the late 50s, when my Virginia-born mom brought my Lebanese-born dad home to her parents, the Rev. and Mrs. Floyd T. Bentley. Grandpa was a Methodist minister. He liked my dad pretty well at first, but was deeply disturbed to find out that the new swain was an Arab. He got over that one, but then he discovered that Dad was a Catholic. This my grandfather could not stomach. He wasn't quite sure *what* an Arab was, but he knew he didn't like Catholics. This was someone who joined the NAACP in the 1940s and was pretty good on civil rights for a man of his demographic group.

Grandpa did get over it eventually, and was proud to perform the marriage ceremony. My father just didn't believe it mattered (sorry) so he smoothed Grandpa's ruffled feathers. In our village they recognized Protestant marriages - missionaries had converted a few families over the years - so my other grandparents didn't object.

By the time I heard this story in the 70s it seemed as quaint and out-of-date and unbelievable as separate water fountains. I am sorry to see that this sort of thinking persists. It makes no sense at all.

What would Jesus do? indeed.

Duncan Kinder

While accepting Hagee's support tarnishes his "straight talk" image, McCain's action is regrettable but human. It is politics - even though McCain is a "non-politician."

What is more disturbing is that McCain would have converted from Episcopal to Baptist in order to promote his candidacy.

taters

I always thought that GWB's speech at Liberty U hurt him in 2000 among Catholics here in SE Michigan, contibuting to his loss.

rob

There are still a lot of Papists in this country and even those who no longer are observant are likely to resent this calumny and McCain's willing association with it.

__________________________

Amen to that, by a right-leaning lapsed (i.e., Mass attending at Christmas-Easter-baptisms--weddings) Virginian Catholic!
Still, I'll certainly vote for McCain over Hillary or Obama, mostly because I think the anti-Nafta and other economic policies of the Dem's are bad for the US economy in the medium-long-run (I do think that in the short-run, this Iraq venture is pretty dumb in cost-benefit terms).

Grimgrin

From my admittedly limited reading of the Bible, what makes a Christian a Christian has already been defined in the sermon on the mount. Here's the King James' version.

The odd thing is... Catholic, Protestant, Baptist... none of that seems to be in this little speech. Although it does kind of indicate that anyone who judges another person is, to paraphrase "fucked".

condfusedponderer

Thanks to the internet I had opportunity to hear a speech of Benjamin Netanyahu (who pushed all of the usual evangelical buttons) to an evangelical audience with an introduction by Hagee. I also heard some of Hagee's fire & brimstone sermons. Hagee is all about eschatology.

Hagee is influential and his flock follows his political lead, which is the sole point behind McCain wooing him. What I give Hagee is that he appears to be sincere in his beliefs. What I also give him is that he tolerates nothing else but his beliefs, and that he wants to change America's political system accordingly. The man is dangerous.

I am a catholic, but not observant. I agree with your above criticism of the Catholic church.

I don't think that McCain is doing himself a favour by allying himself with essentially anti-semitic, anti-catholic, anti-everything-not-them zealots just waiting to be raptured. All they ask from McCain is unlimited support for Israel and an escalation in the Middle East, so that all the Jews who won't convert to Hagee's special brand of evangelicalism can die, finally, so the faithful can go to heaven, finally. And if they're lucky they'll get a global thermo nuclear war as well.

If Mikey Weinstein is right, and I have every reason to believe so, then the evangelical proselytizing at the Air Force Academy at Colorado Springs is more than troubling. When I think of Hagee-type evangelicals as missile launch control officers or deployed in Iraq in contact with Iraqis (doomed pagans), my stomach turns.

jr786

Does anyone really believe that something will come from pointing out the obvious hypocrisy between the non-reaction to McCain/Hagee and the vapors-inducing hysteria over Farrakhan's endorsement of Obama? Hagee's Muslim bashing sentiments and Christian Zionist credentials secure his place on the bigot protected list.

Clifford Kiracofe

As I have a book coming out relating to this topic in December, I can offer a few comments. My book is: "Dark Crusade: Christian Zionism and US Foreign Policy. London: IB Tauris".

The newest research about American religion is the Pew Forum on Religion and Public life's survey just released. They indicate that: Evangelical Protestant Church members are 26.3 percent of US; Roman Catholic, 23.9 percent; Mainline Protestant, 18.1. There is extensive data on the website at http://religions.pewforum.org/

Scholars assess that about 70 percent of evangelicals are of the Fundamentalist type and 30 percent are in the moderate to liberal category. This would give us a population in the US of about 50 million Fundamentalists.

Scholars generally agree that most, nearly all, Fundamentalists believe in the same ideology that Hagee promotes as a televangelist and mega-church operator.

All churches outside of the Dipsensationalist churches are "apostate" whether Roman Catholic or Protestant.

1.Hagee's theopolitical ideology is termed "Dispensationalism" or "Dispensational premillennialism." It is an ideology constructed by a cultic group in the UK in the 1820s and 1830s. The ideology has a bizarre eschatology which interprets biblical passages in Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel as meaning the world is in an apocalyptic "End Times." Also, the scenario requires the physical transfer of Jews from all over the world to the Holy Land. Hence, it is called "Christian Zionism."

2. The ideology was constructed primarily by two British cult zombies: John Nelson Darby and Edward Irving. Both can be "googled" for data.

3. Darby came to the United States and Canada a number of times between about 1860 and 1872. This is how the ideology was implanted in the United States and Canada.

4. For the best technical study from a theological perspective see (Rev.) Stephen Sizer, Christian Zionism Road-map to Armageddon? (Leicester, Eng: Inter-Varisty Press, 2004.)
In the US, Rev. Don Wagner has written extensively on it. Don is coming out with a new book on it as is Norton Mezvinsky. There is an academic literature on it but it is spread through political science, sociology, anthropology, religious studies, and the like in scattered articles and some books.

5. Hagee's national pro-Israel organization is CUFI, or Christians United For Israel. Their website is http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer

6. Hagee's speech to AIPAC, American Israel Political Affairs Committee, is at
http://www.aipac.org/Publications/SpeechesByPolicymakers/Hagee-PC-2007.pdf

There are reports that some within this cultic national subculture have formed armed and potentially violent groups. More McVey's out there???

Some suggest that there are counterintelligence issues here as well as law enforcement issues.


Cold War Zoomie

You could say I was in the belly of the beast. As you all probably remember, my last two years of high school were spent at a conservative, evangelical, fundamentalist boarding school. (Yes, I was a bad boy.) I'm Catholic and I heard it all.

Catholics are idolaters. Catholics aren't Christians. Catholics worship Mary and the dead, but not Jesus. Roman Catholicism is a cult. The Pope is the anti-Christ. Catholics are sadistic nutcases who want to crucify Christ every day until His return. And yes, my all-time favorite, Catholics are cannibals! (Because of Transubstantiation.)

The worst was when some said Catholics can't go to heaven. My mother was very devout. Boy, that made me feel great! Mom's going to Hell even though she goes to Mass six days a week (she's old-school, going to 6am Mass before work!)

She had grown up in the deep South as a Catholic. Her response was that they were ignorant - in the literal sense - and to ignore it all. That they really knew nothing of the Church and its teaching other than what some preacher had told them.

She was right. They were clueless.

If their motive was to "save" me from the evil clutches of the Catholic Church, it didn't work. Their ignorance forced me to recognize my own ignorance of my religion. They pushed me deeper into the Church, where I started researching more and more in order to better understand the theology.

Just another example, out of many, that religious persecution, no matter how mild it is, will backfire.

One more thing, Protestants may not believe that the Pope is infallible and the head of the Church on earth, but they have no problem anointing their own pastors as the infallible popes of their congregations.

Here endeth the rant.

Cold War Zoomie

Hagee is the President and CEO...

'Nuff said.

Martin K

While I am not a religious man myself, at least the Catholic church is an international religious movement with a ecumenical profile. After the wall fell, we have had a great influx of polish folks here in Norway, and it has been a real eyeopener for many how the catholic church in many ways function as a social helping organization. Now the high-haired moneygrubbing warmongers of the born-agains nlike Robertson and Hagee dont seem to take *that* part of the good lords words too seriously.

SubKommander Dred

Charlottesville, Virginia
1 March 2008

Sir;
One thing that I noticed about these guys (Hagee, et al) is they are never around when real work needs to be done. To elaborate on your example of the Catholic priests doing good deeds in the middle of a war zone, I would like to ad my own observation. As I once mentioned to you, I packed up a truck full of 'liberated'(some might say stolen) medical supplies and headed down to what was left of Waveland, Mississippi just after Hurricane Katrina whacked it a few years back. For a week, I worked in a completely ad hoc and totally volunteer medical aid station, sweating out the oppressive heat and humidity of summer in the deep south (along with the very real possibility of getting whacked by Hurricane Rita churning off shore). There were a lot of different folks there; Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, Hippies and even a crazed, renegade ER Nurse (such as myself), all of us trying to make a difference and help out our fellow citizens as best we could. In fact, I saw many different folks, different faiths and backgrounds there, but John Hagee was not one of them. He was too busy back in the comfort of his studio/pulpit inveighing against the wickedness of America that caused God to punish our fellow citizens of the Gulf states with such a destructive storm. While the Reverend John was raking in the dough from his televangelist duties, we were trying to make life a little better for some of our fellow Americans who were going through the most awful time of their lives. As far as I'm concerned, John Haggee can go to hell.

SubKommander Dred

Jeff

While I don't agree with Hagee, or anyone else who thinks Catholics are not Christian--in fact I find that absurd--I can see, intellectually, how some could make a weak argument for the case. But, with that said, don’t waste your time on those fools!

I guess McCain and Obama need to got through their list of unsolicited endorsements now and start "rejecting and renouncing.” Let’s just make sure we don’t get carried away with this.

Neither candidate will be all we want them to be. The selection for President is probably going to end up being between a totally inexperienced sweet-talking liberals liberal, or a cranky old experienced guy that is mildly conservative. I am not a big fan of either, but I will vote.

Jim Schmidt

One item describing the life, times and business practices of Hagee.

THE OTHER GOSPEL
OF JOHN HAGEE
CHRISTIAN ZIONISM AND ETHNIC SALVATION
G. Richard Fisher

http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

We have discussed the dispensationalist mindset several times on SST. However, the end times mycelium is well ensconced in our political humus, budding numerous fruitings with silly to serious reprecussions.

The Interstate 35 purification movement is an example of the silly and invasion of Iraq, "birth pangs of a new middle east" and the pending invasion -- perhaps cleansing -- of Gaza examples of the serious.

I'm sorry to see John McCain accept the embrace of those who profit (or is it prophet) from the end times. Already, his campaign is recalculating the root mean square distance to limit the hazard of ionizing radiation yet still bask in the warm, dispensationalist glow.

Hagee's business is just one of many. And this is big business from Ted's former shop out in Colorado Springs to Doug Coe's "The Fellowship".

See:
"Jesus plus nothing:
Undercover among America's secret theocrats
by Jeffrey Sharlet

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525

My impression is these brimstone boys, though representing a minority of religious practice and viewpoint, have gained a disproportionate influence on our political culture. This influence is in the form of opportunity, money, organizational skill and in the case of Israel, exploitation of collective guilt.

The world is both a mission field and a market for these fellows and I don't see anything good coming from that.

charlottemom

Hagee is certainly involved in something other than raising cash, namely scaring up support for Israel. He is a self-described Christian-Zionist who preaches about End Times with plenty of Muslim denounciation and "just" Christian aggression thrown in. His sermons are scheduled TV viewing on Sundays on where else -- Fox Network. For a Christian, he sure does relish war. While Rick Warren hasn't embraced Hagee's brand of Christianity, it'd be interesting to see which other preachers are in Haggee's camp? While Haggee is the most visible of this "sect", he is certainly not the only one.

And you're right Col., never heard of any Hagee congregants or associates putting themselves in mortal danger.

Sidney O. Smith III

McCain alliance with Hagee looks like part of the a Southern political strategy. It’s the Hagee rapture vs. the Obama rapture in the deep South.

But I want to share an observation about the South. Southerners, especially those of the “Left Behind” ilk, listen to two people for advice: the preacher and the warrior. Certainly since 9.11, “the preacher” has caught their ear more than those in the military who see the folly of our military strategy in the Middle East. And these preachers are fervent dispensationalists.

This McCain-Hagee alliance is extremely potent because most Southerners presume McCain is the leader of the warrior class in the US. So there is a presumption in the South that he represents the voice of the warrior. (Back in the late 1990’s, I was a big fan of McCain until a well known Vietnam Vet in no uncertain terms told me never to support McCain. After considering carefully his words -- which he did not mince --I would not vote for McCain under any circumstances now).

In my opinion, it will be very important for those in the military to oppose publicly Sen. McCain. Sen. Webb could play a role here. In my view, the military publicly opposing McCain is as important at the 07 NIE.

After reading Gorenberg’s book -- The Final Days -- I started watching Hagee’s show on Trinity Broadcast network. He is a very talented speaker. He inherited his rapture ideology from his father, who was an unsuccessful itinerant preacher.

But if you believe in some of the assumptions laid out in Jung’s book -- Man and His Symbols -- Hagee is projecting onto Muslims, particularly Mahoud Ahmadinejad. When he is talking about Ahmadinejad, he is really revealing himself and it is scary.

Black tele-evangelists could play a role here. I often wondered what some black tele-evangelists, such as T.D. Jakes and Eddie Long, really think about Hagee. Some of my black friends have nothing but disdain for tele-evangelism, but tele-evangelism has much of a hold on the South, including blacks. It will be fascinating to see if they break for the Hagee rapture or the Obama rapture (assuming he is the nominee, if not then the Hillary whatever).

Necessary Disclosure: Despite continuing to lead a rather secular lifestyle, I converted to Catholicism after corresponding and meeting a Trappist monk/priest for few years. But I come from a Protestant family, primarily Episcopalians and Methodists.

mike

I am an apostate myself. But some of my close friends and associates are still practicing, some devout, some of the cafeteria variety. They were all in an outrage earlier last year when a certain Democratic candidate was accused of being anti-Catholic. But none seem to have heard of this McCain/Hagee flap yet. They lean right wing and listen to O'Reilly so perhaps it has not hit Fox News.

As for my own feelings on McCain and Obama: A pox on both their houses. Anyone endorsed by Hagee and Farrakhan is not fit to be in the White house, irrespective of rejections or non-rejections.

W. Patrick Lang

Sidney

Ever read the thing about the two cardinals, Manning and Newman in "Eminent Victorians?" Great fun and the man could really write!! pl

W. Patrick Lang

Mike
The arabic word for apostate has more flavor, "murtadd."

Like the drums booming forth in the cave city of the dwarves. pl

Robert in SB

In the same week that McCain sinks lower (I volunteered for him in 2000)seeking endorsements from the holy rollers and endtime/rapture losers, Barack got a nonsensical endorsement from louis farrakan, and immediately repudiated it. one guy parades the endorsement of an extremist; the other shuns it. I know it is simplistic, but that what is killing McCain, and why he will lose the election. Karl Rove's machine is now eating itself alive.

optimax

It doesn't matter who endorses a candidate, but whether a candidate accepts or rejects the endorsement that is important. Obama has "denounced" and "rejected" Farrakhan's approbation while McCain accepted Hagee's. Anyone who supports a candidate based solely on another persons recommendation should not be allowed to vote.

The comments to this entry are closed.

My Photo

October 2020

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
        1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31
Blog powered by Typepad