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09 September 2007

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Leila

I'm a parent and I don't object to your analysis at all. I love my children and yet I cannot love everything they do. THey're children, they do some bratty, crude, cruel things.

And God forbid one of them should grow up to commit heinous acts. I don't know what I would do or feel. I have relatives who grew up to become extremely difficult to love. I could remember them in their babyhood, darling and lovable, and yet see their sad adulthood for what it was.

Bobo

As a parent "Unconditional Love" is the norm. No matter how much the child irritates you or how deep they sink in their life you have to be there to pick them up and steer them in the right direction and that is part of it. Even Michael Vicks Mother is there for her son to turn to in his time of need and please do not use any psychobabble to fault her for her sons depravity.

As to Her Majesty's Forces, yes their actions looked very immature during their captivity. As my 88 year old father, who spent a good amount of time in various Stalags, says alot of strange things happen to a mans mind (I guess women too) in captivity, so pass it off to a new generations way of dealing with the stress. Dodo happens.

As to reading books, I'm a little shellshocked at the quote. I'm sure he learned a little as a young man reading comic books, you can see it in his devilish manner.


alnval

Col. Lang:

I enjoyed your comments about Draper's book and the inferences that might be implied by it. Your take on the Myers-Briggs was particularly interesting. Given that you've guessed at Bush's placement on the sensing/intuitive and perception/judgment dimensions, what's your take on the introvert/extrovert and thinking/feeling dimensions? I assume that his overt public facade conceals introversion but I'm not quite as sure about thinking versus feeling.

alnval

W. Patrick Lang

alnvl

It is, of course, debatable but I think him an ESTP.

In the interest of full disclosure I am an INTP. pl

W. Patrick Lang

bobo

I don't think that your dad's experience as a PW is relevant. He was probably in the "jug" more than a few days.

It will be interesting to know how many believe in unconditional parental love. How about treason to Queen and Country?

The Myers- Briggs test is hardly psycho-babble. What's your type? Yours sounds like a familiar reaction. pl

Leila

I'm an INFP or an ENFP depending on the day you interview me. (I/E scores right down the middle - I'm ambidextrous that way)

I think if I'd been an INTP or ENTP I would have published my first novel by age thirty instead of still toiling away, in scattered bursts natch, at age 45.

alnval

Col. Lang:

As one INTP to another, I can only admire your judgment! ESTP works nicely. Thinking of it from a different psychological perspective it functions as the public container for Bush's primary narcissism. Alas, despite clear and cost-effective success in personnel selection, psychological understanding, explanation and prediction have had little practical value in the rough and tumble world of public politics.

Thanks again for your comments about Draper's book.

alnval

jonst

Pl,

Good insight I believe, when you write:

>>>>>>That kind of statement from Bush reveals how much he needs to be loved. that probably points to something less than "unconditional love" in his past. Perhaps that is why he needs to surround himself with adoring women<<<

I don't buy the unconditional love stuff but then I am not a parent. However, it is simply not what i have observed in people.

But lets assume the stories of Bush challenging his father, more than one time, so i hear, to go mano e mano, are true. That would be test for me for I could no more imagine I could challenge my father to fight (whether I could beat him, or not was beside the point---and for the record I could not---)than I could fly to Mars on my own power. It always struck me as odd, very odd, that Bush is alleged to repeat, with gusto, the story. To do it is bad enough...to spread the story far and wide has always seemed to me, perverse and revealing.

lina

If you want to talk psycho-babble, then clearly GWB's entire political profile reeks of "daddy issues."

1. Daddy didn't invade Baghdad; Jr. invades Baghdad.
2. Daddy is an internationalist; Jr. likes to "go it alone."
3. Daddy is a blue blood from Connecticut; Jr. adopts Texas as his home and develops a fake accent.

The list can go on from here. Plus, let us not forget the man is an alcoholic who stays off the sauce via Jesus. There's a whole lot of stuff in this guy's psyche that trumps Myers-Briggs.

If ever there was a kid who did NOT feel unconditionally loved, it is our dear leader. You can't grow up to be this kind of nut job (and follow the advice of Dick Cheney) if you had a loving childhood.


Bobo

PL or INTP
"An INTP insulted, however, has a tendency to unveil their full mastery of logical intuition. Many a previously self-assured individual has withered under the full brunt of an INTP's tirade of sharply edged, piercing remarks, which frequently do not fall short of the person's every weakness and hidden fault. After such an incident, the INTP is as likely to be as devastated as the recipient; they have broken the rules of debate and exposed their irrational emotions. This to an INTP is the crux of the problem: emotions are to be dealt with in a logical manner, as improperly handled they can only harm"

Pschobabble.

Bobo

sbj

Not to over-indulge in pop-psychology stuff, but with respect to "The Decider", I find these diagnostic criteria for Narcissitic Personality disorder (From the DSM IV), to be quite apt.

"Proposed Amended Criteria for the Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates accomplishments, talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to the point of lying, demands to be recognised as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion.

Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions).

Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply).

Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favourable priority treatment.

Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends.

Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with, acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others.

Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly.

Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, "above the law", and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy."

More on NPD from this somewhat strange website.

http://samvak.tripod.com/npdglance.html

Bobo

Type INTJ

rjj

I always thought the first words to be taught in a human psychology course should be "context," "contingency," "contradiction" and "paradox."

Not only do we frequently hold two mutually exclusive views at the same, most of the time both of them are wrong.

Reality is unwieldly. It is also an acquired taste.

WRT MB -- for me IP is clear and consistent, the answers to the S/N and T/F questions are aways "both" (depends on situation and knowledge/expertise). Has anybody ever tracked MB typologies over time - does life experience change one's cognitive MO?


Grimgrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEu9H-S3xCw

If anyone wants to watch the interaction between Wolffe and Olbermann it's in this clip. It makes me curious though, what kind of RPG's have a range of 6000 feet?

As for the Meyers-Briggs issue, I tend to score as an INTJ.

I've been able to see one fairly major blind spot in personality tests. Unless they're administered by a very perceptive individual, they tend to test an individual's perception of themselves rather than how they really behave. One of my nicknames during school for example was 'Powderkeg', which seems slightly at odds with my Meyers-Briggs personality type description.

I don't know if anyone's done a study where they compared an individual's Myers-Briggs score to how that individual was scored by friend's or co workers, but I suspect that you'd get very different scores for the same individual.

rjj

Apologies. My previous post was off-topic. Am more interested in what makes Chancellor Cheney tick. I can't believe our POTUS Otiosus** is the prime mover of the regime.

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_absconditus

pbrownlee

Why has it taken so long for this to become THE M-B Blog? At leaast as it applies to global military affairs.

An old friend of mine casually (!) gets new clients to do a 100 question M-B assessment and will not work with awkward types.

Any other ENTJs? And are M-Bers wildly over-represented here?

rjj

"Unless they're administered by a very perceptive individual, they tend to test an individual's perception of themselves rather than how they really behave."

Don't the many variations on the questions control for self-deception and delusion?

Friends and coworkers versions of anyone are projections. They would work like a thematic apperception test.

According to the velcro model of human interaction, [most of the time] we only perceive and process qualities that correspond to our own. Those that do not, fail to register.

Will

a close reading of the wiki article on Meyers-Briggs Typology cleared up a misapprehension. It is ExtrAvert not ExtrOvert and refers to Action while Inrovert refers to prefering ReAction.

'
People with a preference for Extraversion draw energy from action: they tend to act, then reflect, then act further. If they are inactive, their level of energy and motivation tends to decline. Conversely, those whose preference is Introversion become less energized as they act: they prefer to reflect, then act, then reflect again. People with Introversion preference need time out to reflect to rebuild energy.

The terms Extravert and Introvert are used in a special sense when discussing Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. Note that "Extravert" is even spelled differently from what is usually seen. Someone with a clear E preference is not necessarily a party animal or a show-off, any more than someone clearly preferring I is necessarily shy, retiring and unsociable"

Googling Dumbya and the Meyers-Briggs Typology reveals hardly a consensus

President George W. Bush ISTJ

Vice President Dick Cheney ENFP -

James Pratt

Is the story about a sister of George Bush passing away after an illness true? I read that George Senior and Barbara Bush played a full 18 holes of golf after the funeral, then came home and told the surviving five chidren that they must never speak of their late sister again. That struck me as cold.

Jose

I always thought Bush was a Mercurial Personality Type, check this link:

http://www.ptypes.com/mercurial.html

The only exception is #6.

Very interesting post, does this mean we all agree that that something is not right with GW? lmao

4 billion

"..the behaviour of Royal Navy and Royal Marine people in Iranian captivity as "meaningless" had much about it that most Americans would not approve. We would not tolerate that behavior in our forces."

So you expect your armed forces to undertake suicidal battles?

I was talking to an Australian Vietnam vet. the other day. On one occasion he advised his commanding officer to retreat from their position, in the face of oncoming, overwhelming force, due to the fact that they had run out of ammunition. On return to main base, he was spat upon, abused, denied food by our American allies.


This story and your criticism of the British behaviour reveal a dangerous zealotary in the American psyche.

It is irrational and insane to expect people to fight in situations where there is utterly no chance of victory.

Sun Tzu would be laughing in his grave.

cynic librarian

I haven't read the book, but I did hear an interview with the author on the radio. One of the interesting Bush quotes he conveyed is that Bush hopes to fill the family coffers (I quote from memory) after he leaves office.

"Everyone's doing it," the author says is Bush's reasoning for. I know Clinton and others make lots of bucks speaking after leaving office, but to have it put so bluntly and so obviously unabashedly shows the depth of this guy's notion of "service to the country."

Of course, I am in the process of writing about Bush's Judas/demonic qualities, so what do I know?

Montag

Bush WAS given unconditional love, in that his Daddy pulled strings to get him into the Champagne Squadron of the Texas Air National Guard and used his influence to help him to "fail upwards" in business. Someone has always been there to bail him out.

When he was Governor of Texas Bush promised to restructure the School Tax System to get it off the backs of the homeowners. When he realized this couldn't be done in the four months that the Legislature meets every two years, he came up with a face-saving gesture of raising the Homestead Exemption from $5,000 to $15,000--which meant the School Districts had to raise the tax rate to offset it. Having gotten four balls and walked to First Base, Bush then did a victory dance as if he'd hit the home run he'd been boasting about. Sad.

The Unibomber's family showed him unconditional love, too. They turned him in when they discovered his identity. They still love him, but they refused to become complicit in any further terrorist acts.

Sidney O. Smith III

In 1994, David Ronfeldt prepared a Rand study for the CIA entitled Beware the Hubris-Nemesis Complex: A Concept for Leadership Analysis. This Rand study appears apropos, since immediately following shock and awe Bush claimed that he heard God talking to him.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/2005/MR461.pdf

Also in light of the fact that Bush mentioned “unconditional love”, I offer for consideration the following for a psychological profile.

1. Bush’s Mission Accomplished scene, where he dressed exactly like his father when his father was a true WWII hero, e.g. Bush43 dressed up as a fighter pilot aboard an aircraft carrier.

2. As the Iraqi nightmare became apparent, Bush41 created a father-son relationship with Bill Clinton as they spent much time traveling around the world on humanitarian issues. I believe Clinton even mentioned how Bush41 was like a father to him.

3. Bush41 publicly cried at some international conference when the Iraqi disaster was brought up. Unconscious msg could have been that he was ashamed of his son.

Freudians may disagree but I simply offer the following for consideration. Bush remains entangled in his family dynamic. And within the family dynamic he desperately wanted his father’s approval but never felt that he received it.

My only concern is if Bush’s mindset could endanger Americans and other people in the world. And I simply note that some people who believe they never received “unconditional love” can turn extremely self destructive at an unconscious level. (This is most easily seen among teenagers).

So, following this line of thinking, odds increase he’ll attack Iran.

W. Patrick Lang

4 billion

The moniker is funny. What? 4 billion people whom you are standing up for?

I guess there was an Australian battalion in VN. The only one I ever met was a Sgt Major. He spent most of his time telling us how great he was.

I presume that you are some sort of pacifist from the comment. That makes you unqualified to talk about what is needed in war. pl

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