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11 April 2006

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Al Spafford

Something for consideration by those Right Wing Christians who might be in uproar over immigrants:
As written in Leviticus 19:33-34, "When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. THE ALIEN LIVING WITH YOU MUST BE TREATED AS ONE OF YOUR NATIVE BORN. Love him as yourself..." No mention of "illegal or legal" status--Looks like Medicaid, schools, etc are to be provided.
As an agnostic I do not necessarily hold to such verse, but gladly point such out to those Bible thumpers who hang on every word.

Charlie Green

This whole debate is about the wrong subject. There is such a disparity, and increasingly so, between wages in the US and Mexico, no amount of fences, deportations, or anything else short of automatic weapons fire (and we're running out of bullets because of Iraq) or minefields is going to have much effect.

Why? Because of our nation's stupid economic policies which allow multinational corporations to rape and pillage nations' economies at will. NAFTA was/is a disaster which also surrendered our national economic sovereignty. But you'll never hear Tancredo or the other wingnuts mention this subject.

As for being "illegal", which immigrants from Europe had visas to come here originally? Not many Native Americans issued them.

W. Patrick Lang

Charlie

That's what I say, kemo sabe. Which tribe do you belong to?

BS. They are in this country illegally. Do we not have a right to borders? pl

W. Patrick Lang

Al

Sanctimonious.

pl

zanzibar

Col. Perfect. I could not agree with you more.

There is a legal process to immigrate to the US. And all prospective immigrants should follow the law as many millions do. If our farms and restaurants want to hire immigrants and the legal process is inadequate lets change the laws. But rewarding law breaking wether it is a US business that hires illegals or illegals demanding legal status does not make sense. Offering citizenship to US born children of illegals again is the wrong message. This position is not about xenophobia although there are some who are in the anti-immigrant camp. All Americans after all are descendants of immigrants and we have a long history of immigration.

However, Col, your idea is brilliant. Since we are so keen on promoting globalization lets start with a free flow zone as you suggest with Mexico and Canada. Maybe then with US capital and ownership many folks south of the border would not need to cross the border for economic reasons.

mrsinger

Pat, we gringos, the last time I looked were trillions in debt as a country and billions in debt as a people and government...in others words we can't afford to buy anything...not Mexico , not anything...we are a country in decline with uncontrollable deficeits and trillions in obigations Medicare and Social Security obligations no one wants to face. The "gringo" thing is over. In the next century it could all be over Michael Singer

Eric

Not bad (but why stop at Mexico?). While making modest proposals, let us also legalize the drug economy and so trade away that other security problem at the border!

Mac Nayeri

"Fair is fair. Turn about is fair play."

There are many people around the world, governments included, that increasingly seek to apply the above enunciated standard to other areas of international relations.

Be careful for what u wish for.

M

Mac Nayeri

Personally, the maxim "good fences make good neighbors" rings true to me.

It's axiomatic that sovereign nations unreservedly have the authority to police their borders in any reasonable manner, including, but not limited to physical barriers. If, as the administration states, we face an enemy with the specific intent of acquiring WMD and using them within the territory of the US, then prudence dictates at a minimum the maintenance of some type of security fence on both the southern and northern borders.

M

W. Patrick Lang

Mac,

You must be a political scientist. Irony, man, irony. pl

W. Patrick Lang

Eric

Sounds like a Swift idea. pl

W. Patrick Lang

Mike

You are absolutely right. we are headed for the dung heap of history.

Someone should tell these folks that they are trying to stow away on a sinking ship.

"Nosotros que nos queremos tanto debenos separar nos. No me preguntas mas..." or something like that. pl

W. Patrick Lang

Zanzibar

I don't know about Canadia. One must have SOME standards. pl

Mac Nayeri

No - but I'm an expert diaper changing, bottle feeding stay-at-home Dad, awaiting Bar results who did a brief stint in DC for Voice Of America, Farsi Service.

Go Redskins

canuck

Ha ... a northern fence! :) Sorry, it's just not feasible to have a fence that's 4500 miles wide. There are numerous islands where the two borders meet.

A fence isn't an answer.

----

Almost every time the subject comes up, borders are tightened up.

Where is the legislation that documents workers? Where are the high fines to employers and companies that employ them? Where is there a procedure for farm workers to come into your country and exit when their time is up?

I get really tired of seeing Canada included illegal immigration comes into the United States well south of our borders. There are no people swimming across the Great Lakes or great hordes of people coming across the unmanned borders that divide the two countries. http://www.immigration.ca/tempent-visit.asp>Visas have to be obtained for people to enter Canada. There is a programme for workers from other countries to enter. They are paid fair wages and usually they leave when their work permit expires. The number that stay is quite small.

I really don’t mind having to get a passport in January 2007. Almost every country we go to, passports are necessary. Will having to get a passport hurt tourism and trade? It probably will for a short period, then citizens from each side of the border will adjust and ensure they have passports for travel. I expect there will be a reduction in snow birds who go to Florida and other warm States. Them’s the breaks! At the rate global warming is happening, people just may come up from Southern States in the future to partake of our colder climate ‘til it gets unbearably hot here too! :)

If illegal immigration didn’t profit from it continuing, it would stop. Fix the infrastructure and the number of illegals will become manageable.

canuck

How big were you thinking of building a fence? If it's 10' high, there are 12' ladders.

Mac Nayeri

Yes - it's more than a bit impractical - but if there's an enemy as the one we've been led to believe, then somethings gotta give - the borders just cannot be left as unprotected as they apparently are. Of course, I have no personal knowledge of either border. I should probably give it a rest and go back to changing diapers.

M

canuck

Enemies...you mean terrorists? A super police force such as the world has never seen before would have more effect than trading bullets around the world. Or strategic killing of them as they are discovered in their cells would be effective.

Terrorism is a clandestine activity and needs to be treated as such.

Citizens shouldn't have to trade their civil rights to catch them.

Mac Nayeri

Agreed - "Citizens shouldn't have to trade their civil rights to catch them."

The thing is, OBL et al, are very patient and doggedly determined, and have been immeasurably stregthened by many of the crass moves of the present government. We have a duty to do all that can be reasonably done to protect ourselves, starting perhaps with a change in the way we conduct our MidEast relations, but that appears too taboo of a subject to broach - let's at least hunker down then within a Fortress America and hope for the best. But I'd agree the better solution lies beyond our borders, whatever their shape or form maybe.

M

canuck

I found an article that was in line with what I had suggested earlier about immigration:

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/page5/20060228_great_immigration_debate/>Immigration

“The current official policy of hotly pursuing migrants on the border and then ignoring them once they’ve been given a minimum wage job works for nobody. Immigrant workers should certainly be legalized, but in return there must be strict work site enforcement. Accepting and supporting a verification system at the point of employment must accompany supporting a channel for legal immigration. This would not only uphold the law but would also serve to protect immigrant workers from all the sorts of exploitation they currently experience.”

----

Bunker mentalities about closing borders, shutting yourself in? Isolationary tactics?

The world is a lot smaller now. Economies and people are interconnected with each other. International co-operation between countries will result in terrorists being caught. Sealing yourself in won't assist America--reaching out might?

I'm a hopeless optimist and know the world will be a better place. Almost everyone in this universe strives for freedom. It's a voice that's built it to people regardless of colour and it's not limited by geography or the type of governance in countries.

From peasants to educated philosophers...the movement has always been toward freedom and that part of mankind remains fixed within each of us.

The plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty says, "Give me your huddle masses ..."

People will risk their lives and die in the pursuant to come to your country because it's seen as embracing freedom. That's why Mexicans are so attracted to the United States.

canuck

Sorry about my spelling errors.

Here's that poem by Emma Lazzarus graven on the tablet at the base of the beautiful Statue of Liberty:

The New Colossus

"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

http://www.libertystatepark.com/emma.htm>Statue of Liberty
-----

No surprise to me that America has attracted so many immigrants from around the globe. My Grandmother was an immigrant that came to North America from England. She sought a better life and found it. God bless her that she came to these shores and didn't come to a port elsewhere. Her dream was fulfilled and is responsible for my being an optimist for myself and the generations that follow me.

Duck of Death

Didn't the barbarians start pouring across the the Danube at the end of western empire?

RJJ

The downside to decency and high mindedness: Canadians scoff at fences when they should be building walls.


Will

Your idea would extend to Mexico-US the same arrangement that we have as members of the Union European . We go one further here in France, from whence came your Statue of Liberty by the way, and allow Union European members from other countries to vote in our city elections if they are residents of the city.

Citizenship, as you suggest, is another matter and varies from country to country.

W. Patrick Lang

Will

Wilfred, perhaps?

I had not thought of my modest proposal in terms of the EU but that is interesting. pl

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