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28 January 2006

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Rider

The first price quoted is not the final price of the rug. I submit that the negotiations have already begun, though a lot of blood may be shed before the principals get to the next stage, back-channnel and through intermediaries. The prerequisite for negotiations is not that each acknowledge the other has the right to exist. What is necessary is that they acknowledge - as they will in time - that the other does in fact exist. A two-state solution is doable, even if one is Islamist.

W. Patrick Lang

Rider

Bless You! pl

jonst

It is "pie in the sky" to think the side favoring negotiations over confrontation will win the coming struggle between the two. But I would argue it is incorrect to assume this internal dynamic is not at work now. This "dynamic" I suggest, has less to do with the Middle East than it has to do with humankind.

W. Patrick Lang

jonst

a useless platitude. we are discussing the ME.

If you think that Hamas and similar groups are "just like people everywhere" than you should get out more. there is a quality to their medieval religiosity that is unmatched by other single minded groups of fanatics.

Negotiations will merely serve to prolong the approach to the coming crisis in which Israel destroys what hope the Palestinans have.

searp

I say shrug. Shrug. Let them have their wars and stay away. We made it our problem, and it has cost us. Time to back off.

W. Patrick Lang

searp

Always wuz. they are not kids. pl

W. Patrick Lang

jonst

I retract the "platitude" part. pl

jonst

PL,

I don't think that the HAMAS are "like people everywhere". I DO think they, some of them, have qualities that history suggests humans, everywhere, share and demonstrate, on a near daily basis. Greed, ego, a desire to live in peace, a desire to make money, a desire hold rank,a desire to grow old, a tendency to be hypocritical and inconsistent regarding their past statements and intentions, and so on. I do believe there are factions within Hamas. Further, I think there are different reasons why different people voted for Hamas. I think it is simplistic to view Hamas, or just about any other group in the world, as monolithic or fixed in their expressed beliefs. And I believe cursory study of history would back me up on that belief.

I get out Patrick. I am not naïve. Neither am I inclined to throw my hands up and say "it's all over now". We'll see what happens. It’s the ME...I'm always pessimistic to some extent. But the future is not written in stone Patrick.

W. Patrick Lang

jonst

Not "written in stone?" We will see if the 21st Century's ideas of "progress" are stronger than Islam as understood by Hamas. We will see. pl

jonst

Forgive me Patrick, I am not making myself clear. By no means am I putting much, if any, faith in "progress", 21st century or otherwise. Rather, essentially the opposite. I put my faith in decadence, corruption, greed, vice. There is a faction, furious protestations notwithstanding, that will get addicted to power. There will be a purist faction that means what it says. For now and for all time. That's all I am saying. I don't have a clue which faction will win or if it even will be close. But there ALWAYS are factions. They lead to the strangest things sometimes. For instance, the sight of that one time fierce ideologue Deng Xiaoping riding around the Astrodome in a horse drawn covered wagon as he, big grin on face, waved a Cowboy hat given to him by right wing Texas oil men. These things happen and they happen every day. And they have, I suspect, been happening since the dawn of time.

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